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Against Intellectual Property in Italian

Contro La Proprietà Intellettuale (Amazon.it), Italian translation of Against Intellectual Property, edited, translated, and with a preface by Roberta A. Modugno (Soveria Mannelli: Rubbettino Editore, Nov. 2010) (“Il giurista Kinsella non ama l copyright,” review by Alberto Mingardi, Domenica, 6 Marzo 2011, N.10) [Amazon Italy version]. An English version of Roberta Modguna’s Preface is pasted below.

The pdf and .doc files for another translation are available for download here.

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Against Intellectual Property

Preface

Stephan Kinsella’s Against Intellectual Property is an important intervention in libertarian political theory. In order to appreciate its significance, one needs to situate it within the background of this political doctrine.

Libertarianism, a variant of classical liberalism, is an American political movement that originated after World War II.[1] Murray Rothbard, an economist and historian, was the principal exponent of one variant of libertarianism, and he is the chief intellectual influence on Kinsella. In general terms, libertarianism carried to extreme lengths the opposition to the New Deal of Franklin Roosevelt and the socialism of the post-1945 British Labour Party. Perhaps the most notable expression of this opposition was Friedrich Hayek’s famous The Road to Serfdom (1944), which warned that the patterns of thought found in advocates of the welfare state repeated dangerous ideas favored by pre-war Continental intellectuals. These thinkers, of whom Karl Mannheim was for Hayek the chief villain, showed themselves willing to suppress liberty, if necessary, in order to put into effect their economic plans. In so doing, Hayek argues, they paved the way for the totalitarian evils of Nazi Germany.

Hayek’s thesis aroused much controversy, but one group maintained that he had not gone far enough. Hayek, although strongly critical of planning, allowed substantial room for state intervention in the economy. He expressly repudiated laissez-faire, arguing that a genuine free market required a carefully constructed legal framework in order to operate properly. He allowed for state provision of basic welfare services, a position he elaborated at greater length in his The Constitution of Liberty (1960).

Libertarians such as the novelist Ayn Rand and Leonard Read, head of the Foundation for Economic Education, maintained that such concessions to contemporary opinion were unneeded and in fact harmful. Voluntary charity would suffice to take care of welfare, if given a chance; besides, the use of state compulsion violates individual rights.

Murray Rothbard, an economist who graduated from Columbia University in New York shortly after World War II,  became attracted to the free market position of the Foundation for Economic Education, but he soon carried matters further to develop his own distinctive and radical variety of libertarianism. Rothbard attended the seminar conducted by the great Austrian economist Ludwig von Mises at New York University and soon became an ardent advocate of Mises’s system of economics.[2]

The economics of Mises fitted very well with libertarianism; Mises contended that all economic systems other than the free market were doomed to failure. Rothbard asked the question, if the free market works so well, why do we need a government at all? Could not private protection agencies assume all the functions commonly assigned to government? Rothbard answered that the free market could indeed be extended in this way, a conclusion that put him decidedly at odds with Mises. In taking this path, Rothbard was influenced by the nineteenth century American individualist anarchists Benjamin Tucker and Lysander Spooner, who had likewise opposed a monopoly state. He differed from these predecessors, though, in adding Austrian economics to their anarchism. Tucker and Spooner were, in Rothbard’s view, monetary cranks, who lacked an appreciation of the importance of sound money and capital investment.

In the foundations of his political philosophy, Rothbard again broke with his teacher Mises. As Mises saw matters, natural law was an outdated idea, which falsely claimed that certain subjective preferences had universal validity. One should rather, Mises thought, openly acknowledge that all ethical judgments are no more than expressions of personal preference. Contrary to what one might at first think, this course of action did not make an effective defense of the free market impossible. Quite the contrary, the fallacy of any attempt to intervene in the free market could be readily shown, without any appeal to controversial value judgments. One can defend the market by showing that interventionist measures fail to achieve the goals of their own advocates. The defender of the market thus stands acquitted of the charge of imposing his subjective preferences on those who do not share them.

For Rothbard, this was not enough. He believed, contrary to Mises, that ethics was an objective science. As he explained in Power and Market and The Ethics of Liberty, each person is a self-owner. No one can coerce or threaten to coerce him, unless he initiates force against others.

If this self-ownership principle is combined with the assumption that land and resources are initially without owners, a controversial conclusion readily results. (The Marxist philosopher G.A. Cohen has questioned the view that land begins unowned.[3]) If people own themselves, then they also own their labor. If they then mix their labor with land, they acquire it. This account is of course derived from John Locke; but Rothbard takes it to much more radical lengths than his great seventeenth-century predecessor. For Rothbard, Lockean acquisition of property leaves no room at all for a state or for any non-voluntary provision of welfare.

We have devoted time to discussing Rothbard because his thought forms the basis of Stephan Kinsella’s monograph on patent and copyright law. Like Rothbard, Kinsella takes the self-ownership principle as fundamental. He does not, though, ground morality in natural law, in the style of Rothbard. He instead follows the Kantian argument of Rothbard’s follower Hans-Hermann Hoppe. In his The Economics and Ethics of Private Property and other books, Hoppe developed a new argument for self-ownership, which modified the communication ethics of Karl-Otto Apel and Juergen Habermas,[4] under whom Hoppe had studied. According to Hoppe, anyone who denies self-ownership falls into a sort of contradiction. Hoppe’s argument has engendered much controversy among libertarians; but Rothbard viewed it with favor.

Even though Kinsella differs from Rothbard in rejecting natural law, the principal interest in Against Intellectual Property lies elsewhere. At first sight, one might wonder why a monograph on patent and copyright law would be of general interest to those interested in classical liberalism. Is not the topic of what protection, if any, inventions and books ought to receive of rather specialized interest? In defending his view, Kinsella extends standard Rothbardian libertarianism; and it is in this extension that the main importance of the work lies for those who wish to understand classical liberalism.

To understand Kinsella’s extension, we must first grasp his conclusion about patents and copyrights. He resolutely rejects these, as well as other forms of intellectual property. If Kinsella wishes to adopt this view, he of course needs to confront the question, how might a libertarian supporter of intellectual property defend patents and copyrights? The answer lies readily at hand. He would argue that because each person owns his own labor, people are also entitled to the products of their intellectual labor. Specifically, patents and copyrights are legitimate: they secure the property rights that are due to intellectual labor. The logic appears inescapable. If you are a self-owner, then you own your own labor; and if you own your own labor, then patents and copyrights are legitimate. How can Kinsella, who rejects patents and copyrights, avoid this repugnant conclusion?

The argument is no mere hypothetical possibility. As Kinsella makes clear, defenders of patents and copyrights have argued in the way just suggested. In particular, to followers of Ayn Rand, intellectual property is the central case of private property. Philosophers, called Objectivists, who accept her views argue in precisely the way sketched above. Kinsella pays particular attention to one such Objectivist philosopher, David Kelley.

In addition, the Austrian economist Israel Kirzner, although he does not address patents and copyrights directly, uses a variation of the argument for patents and copyrights as his central argument for all private property. As he sees matters, people who devise new uses for resources are in effect creating the resource and are thus entitled to own it.[5] For him, as for the Objectivists, ownership of one’s intellectual output is basic.

To return to our question: what is Kinsella to do? He cannot reject the first premise of the argument. To the contrary, he resolutely affirms it: people are self-owners. He responds to the argument instead by rejecting the contention that ideas can be owned. Only physical objects, and claims to them, can be owned. If Kinsella is correct, the argument for patents and copyrights that we have considered collapses. From the initial premise of self-ownership, nothing logically follows about patents and copyrights. Kinsella appears to have solved his problem.

Kinsella makes another important contribution to libertarian theory. He does not reject Locke’s labor-mixture account of initial acquisition of unowned land, but he supplements it with another argument. His new argument proceeds from a penetrating question: what is the need for private property at all?

Kinsella answers that private property stems from scarcity. If we lived in a world of abundance, in which everyone could have as much of any resource he wanted without detracting from anyone else’s share, there would be no need for individual property rights. It is only because this happy state of affairs is not to be found in reality that the problem of property arises. Because, contrary to our fantasy, there is not an abundance of resources available to everyone, any society faces a fundamental problem: how are resources to be distributed?

Here, then is our problem: owing to scarcity, property must be assigned to the various members of society. The task cannot be avoided. As Kinsella explains, human action involves the use of scarce means to attain ends. Given the scarcity of means, we need some system of distributing rights to these means, if incessant social conflict is to be avoided.

In a bold stroke, Kinsella argues that only one method of property assignment is rational. Libertarian property rights must be assigned to the first person to use unowned land or resources. How else could one proceed? Surely the first user has a better claim than the second or any subsequent user.

If Kinsella is correct in his derivation of property rights, he has constructed an argument, based on the inevitable social fact of scarcity, that enables him to defend exactly the property rights he supports.

An appeal to scarcity cannot be used to justify patents and copyrights. Ideas, unlike physical resources, are not inherently scarce. My use of an idea does not prevent you from using the same idea. No circumstances of justice compel us to devise a plan to distribute ownership of ideas. As is unfortunately not the case with physical objects, one person’s use of an idea does not interfere with the use of that idea by anyone else.

Patents and copyrights cannot be justified by an appeal to scarcity; but does this fact suffice to show that patents and copyrights should not exist? Perhaps there is some other sort of argument to justify them.

Kinsella blocks any effort to find such an argument by an ingenious move. What happens, he asks, if patents and copyrights exist? Then, people are restricted in the ownership of their own physical resources. If, e.g., you have a patent on the construction of a certain type of machine, then I am not at liberty to build such a machine, even if I own all the resources necessary to do so. If this is true, we face a difficulty. The argument from scarcity has already established that people have libertarian rights to such resources. If so, someone who owns the parts required to construct a machine is at liberty to assemble them, even if in doing this he relies on someone else’s ideas. Patents and copyrights contradict libertarian rights to physical objects, at least if one accepts Kinsella’s account of such rights.

Stephan Kinsella has given us a provocative and original account of libertarian property rights, in the course of a sustained polemic against intellectual property. Those interested in the political theory of classical liberalism and its most radical branch, libertarianism, will find this book essential reading. Kinsella’s arguments against intellectual property will shape all future discussion of this vital problem.

 

 

Roberta Adelaide Modugno

[1] For a general history of libertarianism, see Brian Doherty, Radicals for Capitalism, Public Affairs Press, 2007.

[2] See Roberta Modugno, Murray N. Rothbard e il libertarismo americano, Rubbettino Editore, Soveria Mannelli, 1998, for a more detailed account of Rothbard’s views.

[3] See G.A. Cohen, Self-Ownership, Freedom, and Equality, Cambridge University Press, 1995.

[4] See Karl-Otto Apel,  Ethics and the Theory of Rationality: Selected Essays of Karl-Otto Apel, Volume 2, Humanities Press, 1996; Juergen Habermas, Moral Consciousness and Communicative Action, MIT Press, 1990.

[5] See Israel  M.Kirzner, Discovery, Capitalism, and Economic Justice, Basil Blackwell, 1989.

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Hsieh and Mossoff on IP and Sewing Machines

In Adam Mossoff in the WSJ, Objectivist Diana Hsieh admits IP is a “thorny” issue. Progress! The WSJ piece citing Mossoff notes: 1

The Sewing Machine War was the first instance of what is today called a “patent thicket.” The disputes prevented Singer from selling his invention, and tensions ran high in and out of court: When Howe personally called on Singer, Singer threatened to throw him down a flight of stairs.

But there’s a happy ending to the story, as your machine-stitched clothes evince. The Sewing Machine War ended with a just and lasting peace in 1856, when Orlando B. Potter–a lawyer representing one of the plaintiffs–suggested a solution that Mossoff calls “groundbreaking but also breathtakingly simple”: The patent-holders would combine their patents in a “patent pool” and share the profits from selling the machines. The patent pool participants lived happily and wealthily ever after—or at least until 1877, when the last patent expired.

The happy ending is that the holders of patent monopolies granted by the states pooled them to form a united front to quash competition. Thus larger companies erect barriers to entry, partially monopolizing a field, with the help of the monopolies granted by the state. Ironically, the state then turns around and uses its own antitrust law against them–as the article notes, “anti-trust legislation today would likely render a smartphone patent pool an impossibility.” 2

Quoting Mossoff, the article says:

the fact remains that lawsuits are often no more than an invitation to negotiation. “Oftentimes the way a party signals to another party in one’s industry, ‘I’m serious about this–you need to speak with me,’ is by filing a lawsuit,” says Mossoff.

Ha! Extortion is an “invitation to negotiate.” The euphemisms for statist aggression are many and varied–collateral damage, and so on.

And most companies do reach amicable licensing agreements where they use one another’s technology for a fee.

Amicable! This means friendly. Yes. Very friendly to threaten to sue someone unless they pay you not to.

The article concludes:

So while the maze of patent lawsuits might seem like wasteful litigation, Mossoff cautions that the opposite might very well be true. Those who defend the patent system and intellectual property rights argue that it encourages innovation by ensuring that inventors get their due. “What the patent system is about is not what’s happening today or yesterday, but what’s going to happen tomorrow,” says Mossoff.

This seems to recognize that IP creates injustice, but that those who favor it think it’s worth it in the long run, for the sake of higher goals. This is exactly the structure of the argument normal statists use to endorse conscription, taxation, and so on–that the violations done to individuals are “worth it” for the greater good.

  1. For discussion of Hsieh and Mossoff see IP: The Objectivists Strike Back!.[]
  2. See my posts When Antitrust and Patents Collide (Rambus v. FTC)The Schizo Feds: Patent Monopolies and the FTC; The Schizophrenic StateIntel v. AMD: More patent and antitrust waste; Are Patents “Monopolies”?; Patents, Prescription Drugs, and Price Controls.[]
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Kirkpatrick Sale Demolishes the Constitution

Heroic! Tea Partiers, Tenthers and Original Intent: Getting Back to the Real Constitution?, Kirkpatrick Sale, Counter.

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Hoppe Desktop Wallpaper

‘Nuff said. Find it here.

Hoppe desktop

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The State is the Problem. Anarcho-Capitalism is the Answer.

Love this LRC ad. LOVE it. Would love to buy this tee-shirt.

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Hans-Hermann Hoppe FACTS!

Obama HoppeHilarious set of “facts” by Evan Isaac on his Facebook page (and some great Hoppe tee-shirts and images interspersed)

1) Hans Hermann Hoppe can see the invisible hand.

2) There is only one risk that is random yet still un-insurable: The risk of Hans Hermann Hoppe.

3) Hans Herman Hoppe can homestead intangible concepts and ideas.

4) Hans Herman Hoppe possess the worlds only free market monopoly. on fear.

5) Ron Paul tells people to google Hans Hermann Hoppe.

6) Hans Hermann Hoppe’s icy stare can breach the non-aggression principle.

7) Hans Hermann Hoppe wasn’t born. His existence is an a priori statement.

8) It turns out Ayn Rand actually wasn’t an atheist. She was a mystic who worshiped Hans Hermann Hoppe.

9) The score for Jaws originally had lyrics, but Speilberg removed them due to an entire screening audience dying from shock. The lyrics consisted of 3 words: “so to speak”.

10) When God made the world, he originally intended air to be a scarce resource, until Hans Hermann Hoppe told him otherwise.

11) Friedrich Nietzsche isn’t a philosopher, but merely a witness to the above altercation between God and Hans Herman Hoppe.

12) Hans Hermann Hoppe has 2 speeds: walk, and logically deduce.

13) The leading causes of death in the United States are: 1. Heart Disease 2. Chuck Norris 3. Cancer. The leading cause of death OF the United States will be: 1. Hans Hermann Hoppe

14) John Galt asks: “Who is Hans Hermann Hoppe?”

15) Hans Hermann Hoppe’s e-mail password is the entire memorized text of Human Action.

16) When Hans Hermann Hoppe and his wife got married, they didn’t exchange wedding vows… they administered Mundliche Prufung’s to each other.

17) Hans Hermann Hoppe scored 140 & 140 on ‘The Worlds Smallest Political Quiz’: http://www.theadvocates.org/quizp/index.html (the highest score is 100 & 100)

18) Hans Hermann Hoppe doesn’t need to trade essential liberty for temporary security. He trades steely glares for absolute security.

19) The 3/5 clause was not originally meant to count slaves as 3/5 of a person. It was meant to count regular people as 3/5 of Hans Hermann Hoppe.

Hoppe Festschrift cover20) The Supreme Court has ruled that it’s not protected speech to shout “Hans Hermann Hoppe” anywhere, public or private. It always results in unsafe stampedes of adoring Austrians Economists.

21) Hans Hermann Hoppe co-wrote a paper once. The co-author: Hans Hermann Hoppe.

22) Hans Hermann Hoppe says that Chuck Norris has a high time preference. Chuck Norris is too scared to debate with Hans Hermann Hoppe about it, and instead ran crying to UNLV. (See this if you don’t get this one: http://chronicle.com/free/2005/02/2005021406n.htm)

23) Due to recent competition, the webmaster at www.chucknorrisfacts.comwill soon have to realize his value to society in a free market – working the mechanics of a gas pump.

24) Contrary to popular belief, America is not a democracy, it is a Chucktatorship. Hans Hermann Hoppe’s next book is entitled “Chucktatorship: A God That Cried”

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Some more added in the comments:

  • Hans Hermann Hoppe is the only professor who would not be attending the mechanics of a gas pump in an anarcho-capitalist world.
  • Hans-Hermann Hoppe thinks in paragraphs.
  • Hans Hermann Hoppe and his wife didn’t “decide” to “have a baby”… they “logically deduced” that a “lowered time preference” was consistent with their “subjective value functions”.
  • That roaring sound you hear when listening to Hans Hoppe speak for the first time is the implosion of your thoughts that minarchy might work.
  • Economic Calculation in the Socialist Commonwealth is impossible… unless Hoppe is doin’ the calculating.
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Re: Good for the Cato Institute

From LRC blog:

Lew, your post contains a depressingly good summary of the primary unlibertarian and un-Austrian positions propounded by Cato: as you note, the policies they push expand the State:

massive money printing (for the big banks and big companies), school vouchers (to deliver private schools into the hands of government), the Ownership Society (every person a homeowner through Greenspan’s housing bubble), Social Security Privatization (a new layer of forced savings on top of the present SS taxes, to benefit Wall Street), etc.

In a previous LRC post, What Kind of Libertarian Are You?, I assembled some links to cases where Cato unfortunately strays from the troika of basic libertarian principles of free markets, non-interventionism, and civil liberties, in particular where various Catoites:

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Mises Academy: Stephan Kinsella teaches Rethinking Intellectual Property: History, Theory, and EconomicsMy article, Rethinking Intellectual Property: History, Theory, and Economics, was published today (Oct, 22, 2010) on Mises Daily. It details the content and purpose of my upcoming Mises Academy course, “Rethinking Intellectual Property: History, Theory, and Economics,” Mises Academy (Nov.-Dec. 2011) (discussed on the Mises Blog in Study with Kinsella Online). Sign up!

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Understanding IP: An Interview with Stephan Kinsella

From Mises blog. Jeffrey Tucker interviews Stephan Kinsella, instructor of the Mises Academy’s forthcoming course, “Rethinking Intellectual Property: History, Theory, and Economics.” Audio of the original interview, recorded October 9, 2010, is available in Mises Media.

Understanding IP: An Interview with Stephan Kinsella

October 21, 2010 by Mises Daily

“Finally, everything fell into place, primarily from Rothbard and Misesian theory. I found that this issue is difficult, but once you see it, it’s one of these issues that sets peoples’ minds on fire. It frees you to think about other things in different ways.” FULL INTERVIEW with Jeffrey Tucker

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How Intellectual Property Hampers Capitalism (Transcript)

The following is a lightly-edited transcript of my speech, “How Intellectual Property Hampers Capitalism,” presented at the Mises Institute Supporters’ Summit 2010 (Oct. 8-9 2010, Auburn Alabama) (audio and video).

[Update: see the article based on this talk: “How Intellectual Property Hampers the Free Market,” The Freeman (June 2011), republished as “How to Slow Economic Progress,” Mises Daily (June 1, 2011).]

How Intellectual Property Hampers Capitalism

Stephan Kinsella

Mises Institute Supporters’ Summit 2010

“The Economic Recovery:  Washington’s Big Lie”

Auburn Alabama * Oct. 8–9 2010

As Doug [French] mentioned, I am a registered patent attorney.  I try not to do too many patents anymore.  I find it a little bit distasteful.  It’s not the most enjoyable profession to have when you mention to people you’re a patent attorney, they always want to tell you their inventions.  I was sitting on the plane and some guy asked, “What do you do”?

I said, “I’m a patent lawyer.”

He said, “Oh, let me tell you about the time I invented One Click before Amazon patented it.”

I’m thinking, “oh God, I have a three hour flight with this guy.”  Maybe I should have told him I was a proctologist.  But I guess that could have actually been worse!

So, David [Gordon], that’s joke #1 that I saved for you today. [continue reading…]

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Mises: Keep It Interesting

[From my Webnote series]

On adding contingent postulates to make analysis “interesting” and useful, see

No, he was not talking about marriage. He was talking about an aspect of the praxeological approach to economics, in which we start with certain incontestable (apriori) propositions (related to human action and its categories), and we explicitly introduce certain contingent facts to make the inquiry interesting. For example,  we posit a society with money instead of a barter society. This insight of Mises has long intrigued me.

As I wrote in my article Knowledge, Calculation, Conflict, and Law (a review essay of Randy Barnett’s The Structure of Liberty):

… Barnett does not provide a rigorous argument showing where are the exact limits of the ability to deduce concrete rules. He evidently feels that the more abstract principles can, for some reason, be established by armchair theorists. If denizens of the ivory tower can do this, why can they not deduce or establish more concrete rules by simply considering more and more contextual facts? In the Roman law system—a somewhat decentralized legal system superior in many ways to the common law—Roman jurists (jurisconsults) helped develop the great body of Roman law by providing opinions on the best way to resolve disputes. These disputes were often purely hypothetical or imaginary cases, in which the jurists asked: “under such and such a possible or conceivable combination of circumstances, what would the law require?” 1 It is conceivable that a large part or even all of the legal code existing in a given society can be “deduced” in this fashion, and then these rules applied like precedents to actual controversies as they arise. As a libertarian (and, I confess, a lawyer), I must say that I believe I would be more comfortable living under a set of concrete rules deduced by libertarian philosophers than the (perhaps more concrete) set of rules developed under the actual common law.

Still, Barnett’s argument in favor of a common-law system makes sense, even to libertarians who favor a deductive approach to rights …. Legal rules must be concrete in the sense that the rules must take into account the entire relevant factual context. Since there are an infinite number of factual situations that could exist in interactions between individuals, a process which focuses on actual cases or controversies is likely to produce the most “interesting” or useful rules.26 It probably makes little sense devoting scarce time and resources to developing legal precepts for imaginary or unrealistic scenarios. If nothing else, a common-law type system that develops and refines legal precepts as new cases arise serves as a sort of filter that selects which disputes (i.e., real, commonly-encountered ones) to devote attention to.

26This is analogous to Mises’s method selecting certain empirical assumptions (e.g., assuming there is money instead of barter) to develop “interesting” laws based on the fundamental axioms of praxeology, rather than irrelevant or uninteresting (though not invalid) laws. …

[continue reading…]

  1. See Roman Law and Hypothetical Cases. []
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Montessori and “Unschooling”

As discussed in my TLS post Stefan Molyneux’s “Libertarian Parenting” Series, there are some who advocate “unschooling.” Some of the ideas, as best I can understand them, make sense, but overall I think they are lacking in any systematic basis for their views and a coherent, systematic approach to education. I just read the following post by John Long, in which Maria Montessori, writing decades ago, criticized what appears to be what is now called unschooling. I agree with her.

Comic-book making instead of calculus?

Students direct their education at Manhattan Free SchoolThat is what people FEAR Montessori education to be: comic-book making instead of calculus.

It is not.

E.M. Standing collaborated with Dr. Montessori on the book Maria Montessori: Her Life and Work. The chapter about elementary education includes this section:

Freedom of Choice Must Still Be Based on Knowledge…Some of the new educationists—says Montessori– in a reaction against the old system of forcing children to learn by rote a tangled skein of uninteresting facts, go to the opposite extreme, and advocate giving the child “freedom to learn what he likes but without any previous preparation of interest….This is a plan for building without a basis, akin to the political methods that today offer freedom of speech and a vote, without education—granting the right to express thought where there are no thoughts to express, and no power of thinking! What is required for the child, as for society, is help towards the building up of mental faculties, interest being of necessity the first to be enlisted, so that there may be natural growth in freedom.”

Here, as always, the child’s liberty consists in being free to choose from a basis of real knowledge, and not out of mere curiosity. He is free to take up which of the “radial lines of research” appeals to him, but not to choose “anything he likes” in vacuo. It must be based on a real center of interest, and therefore motivated by what Montessori calls “intellectual love.”

Montessori was a revolutionary thinker. And she pointed to the middle path: FREEDOM…within limits.

Posted by john long at 12:39 PM

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