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Kinsella on Liberty Podcast, Episode 139.
Albert Lu interviewed me for his Power and Market podcast, posted July 29, 2014. Unlike most interviews, we talked about education, career choices, and related matters. This is an edited version of a longer interview. The longer one can be obtained by requesting access here.
Other Kinsella biographical material.
Lu’s description for the longer interview (which will be posted anon):
Interview Highlights
In this interview, Stephan speaks directly to prospective law students, internet entrepreneurs, and technology capitalists about the practice of law and the dangerous world of intellectual property.
We also took time to discuss his own academic career and his multiple transitions from engineering student, to lawyer, to proprietor and independent scholar.This was a fun interview and reminds me of reason I began this project in the first place.
Grok shownotes, episode summary, and transcript below:
SHOWNOTES FROM GROK:
Power and Market Report: Show Notes with Stephan Kinsella
In this engaging episode of the Power and Market Report, host Albert Lu interviews Stephan Kinsella, a patent attorney and prominent anti-intellectual property (IP) theorist, from his home in Houston, Texas . Kinsella shares his journey from a science enthusiast in rural Louisiana to earning degrees in electrical engineering and law, driven by a passion for both hard sciences and legal theory . He discusses how market incentives and personal adaptability shaped his career, emphasizing the importance of optimism and flexibility for young people navigating their professional paths . The conversation delves into practical IP concerns, particularly around domain names and trademarks, with Kinsella advising entrepreneurs to conduct thorough trademark searches to avoid legal disputes .
The discussion also explores the inefficiencies of the IP system, which Kinsella critiques as a “cancer” on the free market, forcing businesses to hire lawyers for unnecessary protections . He clarifies the distinctions between copyright, trademark, patent, and trade secret, noting that short titles like “Power and Market” are not copyrightable but may require trademark consideration . Kinsella wraps up by sharing productivity tools like j2.com for online faxing and SugarSync for file synchronization, invaluable for his law practice . The episode concludes with contact information for Kinsella and an invitation for listeners to access bonus content at powerandmarket.com/bonus , offering a blend of personal insights, legal advice, and libertarian perspectives on IP and entrepreneurship.
Power and Market Report: Detailed Show Notes with Stephan Kinsella
This episode of the Power and Market Report, hosted by Albert Lu, features Stephan Kinsella, a patent attorney and anti-intellectual property theorist, recorded on July 29, 2014. Below is a detailed summary of the conversation, segmented into blocks of approximately 5 to 15 minutes, with bullet points, time markers, and enriched descriptions including examples, illustrations, and anecdotes. Each segment provides a deep dive into the topics discussed, tailored for engaging show notes.
Segment 1: Introduction and Kinsella’s Background (0:00–6:25, ~6.5 minutes)
The episode kicks off with Albert Lu setting the stage from the “Bayou State” (Louisiana), introducing the Power and Market Report as a platform exploring liberty and entrepreneurship. He welcomes Stephan Kinsella, a Houston-based patent attorney with a twist: Kinsella is a leading critic of intellectual property (IP), arguing it’s both unjust and nonexistent. Lu paints a vivid picture of Kinsella’s journey, from a small-town Louisiana kid tinkering with electronics to earning advanced degrees in electrical engineering and law. The conversation dives into Kinsella’s early life, where his curiosity for science and philosophy shaped his path. He shares nostalgic anecdotes about dismantling radios and getting shocked, illustrating his hands-on approach to learning, and reflects on the less structured college selection process of his era compared to today’s hyper-competitive landscape.
- Albert Lu opens the show with enthusiasm, broadcasting from Louisiana, and introduces Stephan Kinsella as a guest who blends legal expertise with a radical anti-IP stance. He frames the episode around the “business of liberty,” setting an engaging tone for entrepreneurs and liberty enthusiasts.
- Lu provides a detailed biography: Kinsella grew up near Baton Rouge, earned a bachelor’s and master’s in electrical engineering at LSU, and later pursued a JD (1991) and LLM (1992). He’s a registered patent attorney but also an independent scholar who challenges IP’s legitimacy, famously arguing in his writings that patents and copyrights stifle innovation. For example, Kinsella’s book Against Intellectual Property posits that IP laws create monopolies that harm creators more than they help.
- Lu prompts Kinsella to share his pre-college interests, sparking a lively discussion about his childhood fascination with science and philosophy. Kinsella recalls reading pseudoscience books on pyramid power and exploring religious ideas, showing his broad curiosity.
- Kinsella dives into his love for technology, sharing an anecdote about taking apart televisions and radios as a kid, often getting shocked in the process. He explains choosing electrical engineering at LSU because it was practical and interesting, contrasting his era’s casual college selection—flipping through a catalog—with today’s SAT prep and campus tours. For instance, he picked his major simply because he liked computers, a decision that felt intuitive rather than calculated.
- Kinsella describes his college years at LSU as fascinating, but after job offers from General Dynamics and Schlumberger, he opted for grad school to delay entering the workforce. His girlfriend (now wife) was still in school, and a quasi-recession prompted him to stay in academia. He shares how his dissatisfaction with engineering’s mechanical focus led him to legal theory, sparked by writing libertarian articles for the school newspaper and friends urging him to attend law school because he loved to argue.
This opening segment introduces Kinsella’s unique blend of technical and legal expertise, rooted in a curious childhood and a pragmatic approach to education. His anecdotes about tinkering with electronics and navigating college choices highlight a relatable journey shaped by passion and opportunity, setting the stage for deeper discussions on IP and entrepreneurship.
Segment 2: Career Choices and Market Influences (6:25–10:03, ~3.5 minutes)
This shorter segment bridges Kinsella’s personal story with practical advice, focusing on how market incentives and personal choices shape careers. Lu reflects on the uncertainty of youth—how 17-year-olds often don’t know their calling—and asks if it’s beneficial for the market to guide career paths. Kinsella shares a thoughtful perspective, drawing from his own experience and his role as a parent to an 11-year-old son. He illustrates with an analogy: career choices are like an “embarrassment of riches,” where intelligent people must narrow down abundant options. He recounts his lower-middle-class upbringing, where optimism and supportive parents fueled his confidence, and uses vivid examples, like ruling out unrealistic careers (e.g., basketball for the short), to underscore the need for adaptability and realistic ambition in a market-driven world.
- Lu poses a philosophical question: is it good that the market often chooses careers for young people, given that at 17, most are unsure of their path? He notes how market incentives like prestige and earnings guide choices, using his own engineering background as an example. Kinsella agrees, suggesting that competent, hardworking individuals are suited for many roles, likening career selection to choosing from a vast menu.
- Kinsella reflects on advising his 11-year-old son, noting that today’s career planning is more systematic than in his youth. He illustrates with a contrast: while his college decision was a casual flip through a catalog, his son’s generation faces intense planning. He emphasizes that early choices, like a college major or first job, shape future paths, guided by market signals like job demand for engineers in the 1980s.
- Kinsella shares a personal anecdote about growing up in rural Louisiana, where his supportive parents and optimism were key. He recalls never doubting he’d succeed, reinforced by good grades and job offers. He uses a humorous example: you can’t be a Romanian translator without knowing the language or a basketball star if you’re a foot tall, illustrating the need for realistic goals. He advocates for adaptability, citing successful peers who pivoted when opportunities arose, like an engineer turned lawyer seizing a niche in patent law.
This concise segment explores the interplay of market forces and personal agency in career paths, enriched by Kinsella’s relatable stories and analogies. His emphasis on optimism, adaptability, and realistic ambition resonates with listeners navigating their own professional journeys, paving the way for practical IP advice.
Segment 3: Domain Names and Trademarks (10:03–15:01, ~5 minutes)
The conversation takes a practical turn as Lu, role-playing an online entrepreneur, seeks Kinsella’s advice on choosing domain names without running afoul of trademark law. Kinsella delivers a clear, cautionary explanation of how trademark law intersects with internet domains, using vivid examples like Madonna.com and the Ron Paul campaign’s domain dispute to illustrate potential pitfalls. He paints a picture of a legal landscape where powerful entities can bully smaller players, sharing an anecdote about the disheartening Ron Paul case to highlight IP’s misuse. Kinsella’s advice is actionable yet critical, warning entrepreneurs to consult trademark lawyers and secure backup domains, while subtly weaving in his anti-IP stance by comparing trademark disputes to market distortions.
- Lu, acting as an entrepreneur launching a product, asks if using domain names with trademarked words is risky. Kinsella responds affirmatively, explaining that trademark law, embedded in international and internet regulations, poses significant challenges. He uses the analogy of a minefield: choosing a domain without checking trademarks is like stepping blindly into legal trouble.
- Kinsella elaborates with a striking example: a domain like Madonna.com could be seized by the celebrity via WIPO’s Uniform Domain-Name Dispute-Resolution Policy (UDRP), even if used innocently (e.g., for a motherhood-related site). He shares an anecdote about the Ron Paul campaign’s attempt to take RonPaul.com from a supporter, calling it “disheartening” and illustrating how IP laws enable bullying. He notes that such disputes often ignore whether fraud occurred, skewing toward the powerful.
- Lu asks if trademark searches must be international. Kinsella confirms, explaining that domains are global, requiring WIPO and comprehensive searches. He cites an example of Apple losing a trademark in Mexico, showing that even giants struggle to secure worldwide rights. He compares it to trying to lock every door in a global house—nearly impossible without vast resources.
- Lu brings up the Washington Redskins’ trademark invalidation for being offensive. Kinsella predicts they’ll regain it on appeal but explains that losing a trademark doesn’t bar using the name, only exclusive control. He illustrates with a scenario: without trademark protection, anyone can sell Redskins t-shirts, potentially flooding the market. He speculates the NFL might force a name change to maintain monopoly control, showing how private rules can amplify IP’s impact.
This segment offers a practical guide to navigating trademark risks for domain names, enriched with real-world examples and anecdotes that highlight the complexities and abuses of IP law. Kinsella’s advice is both actionable and critical, appealing to entrepreneurs while subtly advancing his anti-IP philosophy.
Segment 4: Copyright, Trademark, and IP Critique (15:01–20:59, ~6 minutes)
Lu shifts to copyright concerns, asking if a domain like PowerAndMarket.com could face issues, prompting Kinsella to unpack the distinctions between IP types with clarity and depth. He uses analogies, like comparing copyright to a novel’s text versus a title’s brevity, to demystify legal nuances. Kinsella shares a hypothetical about writing a sci-fi novel called “Titanic” to illustrate copyright’s limits, and his critique of the IP system as a “cancer” on the free market comes alive with a vivid comparison to tax law’s inefficiencies. He recounts how businesses are forced to hire lawyers for unneeded protections, using the analogy of paying for an umbrella in a desert. The segment ties practical advice to Kinsella’s libertarian philosophy, making it both educational and provocative.
- Lu asks if a domain like PowerAndMarket.com could be copyrighted, reflecting a common entrepreneurial concern. Kinsella clarifies the four IP types: patent (inventions), trademark (brand identifiers), copyright (creative expressions), and trade secret (confidential info). He explains that domains don’t involve patents or trade secrets, and copyright doesn’t apply to short titles, using the analogy of a book’s cover versus its contents.
- Kinsella illustrates with an example: the movie Titanic doesn’t own the word “Titanic.” A sci-fi novel about an asteroid called “Titanic” wouldn’t violate copyright because titles are too brief for protection. For PowerAndMarket.com, he advises checking USPTO’s TESS for trademark conflicts, suggesting a trademark filing to preempt issues. He shares a tip: entrepreneurs should view trademarks as a shield, not a sword, to protect their brand.
- Kinsella critiques the IP system, arguing it forces businesses to hire lawyers for protections they wouldn’t need in a free market. He uses a powerful analogy: IP and tax laws are like cancers, creating wasteful industries like patent and tax attorneys, just as cancer creates a need for oncologists. He recounts how clients spend thousands on trademark filings to avoid disputes, likening it to buying an umbrella for a desert—costly and often unnecessary.
- Lu confirms “Power and Market” isn’t trademarked, referencing its similarity to Murray Rothbard’s book title, and asks if he should trademark it. Kinsella notes that book titles aren’t copyrighted and doubts it’s trademarked as a brand. He shares an anecdote about advising clients to file trademarks defensively, suggesting Lu consider it for podcast services to secure his brand, with minimal risk from Rothbard’s estate.
This segment blends practical IP advice with a scathing critique of the system, using analogies and hypotheticals to make complex legal concepts accessible. Kinsella’s libertarian lens and vivid examples, like the “cancer” of IP law, engage listeners while equipping entrepreneurs with actionable insights.
Segment 5: Productivity Tools and Closing (20:59–24:35, ~3.5 minutes)
The episode wraps up with a practical and personal touch as Lu asks Kinsella to share productivity tools for his law practice, offering listeners actionable tips for their own businesses. Kinsella enthusiastically recommends j2.com for faxing and SugarSync for file syncing, sharing an anecdote about faxing’s stubborn persistence in legal work to add humor. He paints a picture of a busy attorney juggling multiple devices, with SugarSync as a lifesaver for seamless file access. The segment closes with contact details and Lu’s warm sign-off, teasing a future in-person discussion and directing listeners to bonus content. The conversational tone and relatable insights make this a fitting, engaging conclusion.
- Lu asks for a productivity tool, appealing to listeners running home-based businesses. Kinsella recommends j2.com, an online fax service he’s used for a decade, sharing a humorous anecdote about faxing’s outdated but persistent role in law. He explains how emailing documents to j2.com’s system simplifies faxing, with free and affordable paid options.
- Kinsella praises SugarSync.com for syncing folders across devices (Mac, iPad, Windows), comparing it to Dropbox but better. He shares a scenario: updating a client file on his laptop, and SugarSync instantly syncs it to his desktop and cloud, saving time. He also mentions Carbonite for backups, illustrating his tech stack for a paperless practice.
- Lu asks how to contact Kinsella. He directs listeners to stephankinsella.com for his email and NSKinsella handles on Facebook and Skype, noting his first name is Norman but he goes by Stephan. He shares a light-hearted story about his unique spelling causing confusion, making his online presence memorable.
- Lu thanks Kinsella, noting the hour-and-a-half discussion felt like minutes and proposing a part two in person. He signs off, directing listeners to powerandmarket.com/bonus for free content, and confirms the date as July 29 (likely 2014), leaving listeners eager for more.
This final segment delivers practical productivity tips enriched with Kinsella’s relatable anecdotes, making it highly actionable for entrepreneurs. The warm closing and promise of bonus content leave listeners inspired and connected, capping off a dynamic episode blending legal insights and libertarian thought.
Power and Market Report with Stephan Kinsella
Hosted by Albert Lu, this episode features Stephan Kinsella, a patent attorney and anti-intellectual property theorist. Recorded on July 29, 2014.
Intro
Albert Lu: Broadcasting from the Bayou State, this is the Power and Market Report, exploring the business of liberty. Albert Lu here with guest Stephan Kinsella. Thanks for joining me for another installment of the Power and Market Report, a show about the state, entrepreneurs, and their tireless pursuit of human liberty.
[Music]
[Applause]
Albert Lu: Raised in a small town near Baton Rouge, Louisiana, Stephan Kinsella pursued an early interest in the applied sciences at Louisiana State University, where he earned a bachelor’s and master’s degree in electrical engineering. During this period, he discovered a passion for legal theory and wasted no time. He received a JD in 1991, an LLM in 1992, and has been a registered patent attorney ever since. There is, however, a twist. Mr. Kinsella is also an independent scholar and a leading anti-intellectual property theorist. In his many publications, he argues that not only are intellectual property laws unjust, but intellectual property itself does not exist. He joins me today from his home in Houston, Texas.
[Music]
Education
Albert Lu: Let’s pick it up just before you went to college. You studied engineering. You’re well-educated, with a bachelor’s, master’s, JD, and LLM. You must have had an interest in the hard sciences coming out of high school.
Stephan Kinsella: Absolutely. Science was always my interest, along with philosophy. As a young kid, I loved reading pseudoscience books—pyramid power, that sort of thing—and exploring religion. I was fascinated by technology and science. I used to take apart televisions and radios, trying to figure out how they worked, even as a young kid before I had any systematic knowledge. I’d get shocked sometimes, but it was all part of the learning process. When it came time to go to college, I assumed I’d attend because I did well in school. I got scholarship offers from LSU and other universities, and it seemed natural to major in something practical and interesting. Engineering, math, and science fit that bill, and I knew I could build a good career. Back then, it wasn’t like today with guidance counselors and competitive college tours. You were a smart kid, you went to college, got a scholarship, and figured it out.
Stephan Kinsella: I flipped through the LSU catalog to choose my major and picked Electrical and Computer Engineering because I liked computers. It was a simple decision, not systematic at all. I loved all four years of studying electrical engineering at LSU—it was fascinating. I got job offers from General Dynamics and Schlumberger right after my bachelor’s degree, but I wasn’t ready to join the workforce. My girlfriend, now my wife, was still in school, so I decided to go to grad school to wait out a quasi-recession and have more time to decide my path. I was always a bit dissatisfied with the restricted nature of science and engineering—it’s so mechanical and mathematical, shunning normative topics like history, philosophy, and arguing. Those fascinated me, so I started writing and debating libertarian topics in the school newspaper. People kept saying, “You like to argue, you should go to law school.” So, I looked into it. My friends thought I’d make more money as a lawyer, which turned out to be true. My mother used to say I should be a lawyer because I argued so much, though I’m not sure it was a compliment.
Stephan Kinsella: Litigators argue professionally, but I’m not a litigator. I’m a transactional attorney, doing deals and IP work.
Albert Lu: I studied electrical engineering about four years after you, also earning a master’s degree. In 1994, I remember trade magazines full of ads from firms looking for electrical engineers to go to law school. There was a huge demand in the U.S. for scientifically minded lawyers. Another observation: when you’re 17, you don’t really know what you want to do. You have an idea of what you’re good at, but the career chooses you as much as you choose it, based on market incentives like prestige and earning potential. Do you think that’s a good thing? You probably don’t regret engineering, but what do you think about the market choosing your path?
Stephan Kinsella: Times have changed. I have an 11-year-old son, and advising him on college and career choices will be more systematic and maybe agonizing than it was for me. In our system, then and now, if you’re intelligent, competent, hardworking, and have the right values, you’re suited for many things. It’s an embarrassment of riches—you need to narrow your choices. The choices you make, like your major or first job, narrow your future options, and there’s nothing wrong with that. The market guides the allocation of human capital through signals. I grew up in lower-middle-class rural Louisiana, but I was smart, did well in school, and had supportive parents who gave me educational opportunities. For my generation, the most crucial thing was an optimistic background where success was assumed. I never questioned that I’d make it. I got reinforcement through good grades, job offers, and a supportive family. Part of that was luck and circumstance, but the lesson is that young kids need an open-ended field to explore and confidence to pursue their goals within realistic bounds. You can’t be a Romanian translator if you don’t know the language or a basketball player if you’re too short. But with optimism, a plan, and hard work, you can succeed. The most successful people I know are adaptive, seizing opportunities they’re good at.
Domain Names and Trademarks
Albert Lu: Put on your Monday-through-Friday attorney hat, not your academic thinker one. I’m an online entrepreneur marketing a product and want to pick a domain name. Should I worry about using domain names with trademarked words? Is that a potential problem?
Stephan Kinsella: Yes, you should worry. Trademark law, which has wormed its way into international and internet law, can cause issues. If you have a domain name like TomCruise.com or Madonna.com, even though Madonna doesn’t own the word “Madonna,” her fame and resources mean she could challenge it through the World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO) using a Uniform Domain-Name Dispute-Resolution Policy (UDRP) proceeding. She could potentially take the domain from you, even if no one is defrauded or your use is legitimate. These laws allow bullying. Even Ron Paul’s campaign tried to stop someone using RonPaul.com in a UDRP proceeding, which was disheartening. As a businessman, you need to be careful when selecting a domain name, just like choosing a business name. Consult a trademark lawyer to ensure there’s no risk, or understand that your domain could be taken. Consider having backup domains.
Albert Lu: Would this search need to be international?
Stephan Kinsella: Ten years ago, I’d have said the USPTO website was enough, but now domains are accessible globally, with international commerce implications. You need a WIPO search and a full international search. It’s challenging—even companies like Apple have lost trademarks in places like Mexico because it’s hard to secure all rights worldwide.
Albert Lu: Slightly related, the Washington Redskins’ trademark was deemed invalid by the USPTO for being offensive. What’s your take?
Stephan Kinsella: I suspect they’ll get their mark back on appeal, but losing a trademark doesn’t harm them much. They can still use the name “Redskins”; they just can’t exclusively control it. Others can sell Redskins t-shirts, making the name more prevalent. The USPTO’s decision eases restrictions, unless the NFL has a rule requiring teams to have trademarked names, which could force a change to maintain monopoly control.
Copyright and Trademark
Albert Lu: Let’s forget trademarks for a moment. Say I have a cool domain name like PowerAndMarket.com, but the term might be copyrighted. Is that a concern?
Stephan Kinsella: Let’s clarify the four main types of intellectual property: patent, trademark, copyright, and trade secret. This has nothing to do with patents or trade secrets, as the domain name isn’t secret. Copyright applies to original expressions of ideas, but short titles like “Titanic” or “Power and Market” aren’t protected because they’re too brief to be considered original. If you wrote a sci-fi novel called “Titanic” unrelated to the ship, it wouldn’t violate copyright. For PowerAndMarket.com, the only concern is trademark. Check the USPTO’s trademark search engine (TESS) for “Power and Market.” If it’s registered for similar services, you could have a problem. If not, you’re likely clear. You might consider filing your own trademark to preempt others from monopolizing it. The problem with the IP system is it forces people to hire lawyers for protections they wouldn’t need in a free market, creating a waste of resources. Patent, trademark, and tax lawyers exist because of these systems, like oncologists exist because of cancer. In an ideal world, we’d have neither.
Albert Lu: You’re comparing cancer to tax and patent law?
Stephan Kinsella: Yes, tax and patent laws are like cancers on the free market economy.
Should You Trademark Power and Market?
Albert Lu: So, if “Power and Market” isn’t trademarked, should I consider trademarking it? And I shouldn’t worry about a call from Lew Rockwell’s attorneys?
Stephan Kinsella: You say you checked and it’s not trademarked. “Power and Market” is the title of a Rothbard book, but that’s a copyright issue, and titles aren’t copyrighted. I doubt it’s trademarked as a source identifier for goods or services. From what I know, the risk to you is low. But yes, consider filing a trademark registration for “Power and Market” for services like delivering information via radio, internet, or podcasts.
Productivity Tools
Albert Lu: Every guest shares a productivity tool or life hack. You run your own law practice, so you must rely on online tools. What can you share with the audience to help a home-based business?
Stephan Kinsella: One tool is j2.com, an online fax service I’ve used daily for 10 years. I hate that faxing still exists, but j2.com lets you send and receive faxes via email. You can email a document to a fax number through their system. There’s a free version and affordable paid versions. Another tool is SugarSync.com, a paid service that synchronizes folders across your computers—Mac, Windows, iPad—to a cloud account. It keeps all your devices in sync, like Dropbox but better. I also use Carbonite for online backups. These are mundane but invaluable for my practice.
Albert Lu: How can someone contact you about a trademark or IP issue?
Stephan Kinsella: Visit stephankinsella.com for my email on the contact page. I’m on Facebook and Skype as NSKinsella—my first name is Norman, but I go by Stephan. I’m NSKinsella everywhere.
Closing
Albert Lu: Thank you so much for joining me. I could go on, but we’ll have to do a part two, maybe in person. This hour-and-a-half flew by.
[Music]
Albert Lu: Thanks to Stephan Kinsella for joining me. Find him at stephankinsella.com. For the rest of this interview, visit powerandmarket.com/bonus for free weekly bonus content. That’s the Power and Market Report for Tuesday, July 29. I’m Albert Lu. Thanks for listening.
