KOL349 | CouchStreams Ep 58 on Break the Cycle with Joshua Smith

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hello hello hello and welcome to another episode of break the cycle with me your host

joshua smith i hope everyone’s having a wonderful tuesday night we got an awesome show as per the usual for you

i’m just super stoked on this entire week of shows it’s it’s just amazing to me that uh any of these guys

want to come on my podcast first of all but uh i guess we’re i guess we’re growing pretty fast uh so that’s a good thing uh let’s talk

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uh find out what these people can do for you today uh for your business your home or your personal life they’re doing a job that the government sucks at

for a much cheaper price and much more efficiently guys i hope everybody is uh as excited

as i am today we have a real heavyweight on the show uh seriously he’s a former adjunct uh

uh professor or scholar from the ludwig von mises institute uh he is also the founder of

the central he did you did found it right the uh the uh uh center for study of innovative

freedom yeah yes i i designed and put the website up perfect perfect uh he’s also the uh

author of against intellectual property that i’m sure everyone has read by now he is mr stefan

kinsella how are you doing tonight sir i am doing well i’m covet free

so covet free huh yeah did you did you have did you get the covets

yeah i got it pork fest oh did you really a lot of a lot of people yeah about 10 about 10 people as far as

like as far as my account goes at this point well i know scott horton got it and a few others so i was uh

yep i was checking it out but it seems like everybody got got healed up pretty good and nobody nobody got it too bad so that’s exciting

yeah but uh so what listen from from uh lsu grad to uh

founder author uh scholar oh there he is i i had a feeling you might have a tiger’s

hat sitting around somewhere i had a feeling i i did i really did but how did you get here man how did you become

how did you go from uh you know you you initially went to school for electrical engineering correct

i did yeah yeah and then and then lawyer and anarcho-capitalist staunch anarcho-capitalist how did you make that

journey man well um so on the education side uh you know i just

wanted to major in something that i could get a job at that i found interesting and challenging which was electrical engineering

because i like computers and um lsu because it was the closest big school to where i came from it

didn’t even occur to me to go somewhere else and then law school because i started getting interested in politics and

arguments and all that as i got into interest in economics and libertarianism so i just thought law would be more

challenging and uh more verbal reasoning than all the math and stuff and engineering and so i i’ve

loved being a lawyer and i went to patent law because if you have an engineering background you can you can do that as a lawyer and

it’s kind of it’s a really narrow specialty uh so that’s been fun and you get to still do some technology so it was a

good blend but on the side my avocation my sort of hobby has always been libertarianism

ever since i was like in high school so i kept studying it and as i learned how to write as a lawyer which

is kind of like an academic type writing you have to footnote and research things and write in a systematic way

i kind of use that skill to write more scholarly type articles on libertarian topics so those two

fields sort of grew together they’re different but they complemented each other in a couple

ways number one my career helped fund my you know i was on my own benefactor really so helped fund my

libertarian traveling and and on all that kind of stuff and uh and also i just think my my

knowledge of the law and actually uh going to lsu was just a coincidence but louisiana

law school teaches the roman law more than other schools do because of louisiana’s unique

situation and the knowledge of the roman law in addition to the common law has helped me as a sort of a legal scholar

as a libertarian um because i think i would not have known a lot of things about the law and legal systems

so they kind of dovetailed and they complemented each other and then of course knowing patent law helped get make me better at dissecting

as a libertarian what’s wrong with the patent and the copyright system so they’ve they sort of

intertwined together sure absolutely and you it’s funny i had this conversation i hopped on a friend’s podcast last night

after i did my show uh it’s the tower power hour if you guys haven’t followed that it is one of the craziest podcasts you will ever listen

to and we were actually talking about the the laws in louisiana and how it’s like it’s almost like a completely different

legal system they’re still holding on to that like french common law uh system sort of in louisiana are

correct yeah it’s the french civil code it was uh was based upon the french civil code that napoleon had done in 1804

and louisiana had a similar version in 1808 and it also draws upon spanish the spanish law the la siertas

as we call it so louisiana law is a mixture of spanish and french in terms of substance

but the farm was french so they retained their civil law system there

was an effort by the united states to force them to to adopt the common law system in the in the early i want to say early 1800s

and the citizens revolted and refused because they were used to the civil law terminology and and and

some unique aspects of the system like forced airship which is you can’t disinherit your children your

children have to inherit a certain portion of your estate uh which is a relic of the

european way of doing things um which i actually don’t completely disagree with as a libertarian i think you could make some

rough arguments for it um anyway so they held on to it and it’s so that’s why louisiana has parishes

instead of instead of a set of counties just because of the french the french influence

yeah absolutely uh so you’re really big on ip i mean you wrote a book about being against ip uh you’re you’re

a patent lawyer you’re obviously i mean probably one of the most anti-ip people

at least on the internet uh and we get probably in the world to be honest i pretty much know all the players at

this point that there’s no one who is as against it as i am in the world i think

well and there’s there’s so many people who argue with you online and you’re constantly calling people out for debates and no one’s ever taken you up on it uh they

do sometimes but i i well i offered to have a discussion with them to explain things because sometimes you just can’t explain things

in a choppy twitter thing i just started today i started people go to my site c4saf.org

slash wrong about ip i kind of got that idea from tom woods

because he has wrong about whatever and mike masnick at tech dirt has a page on section 230 of the cda

it’s it’s a it’s a link to a long thing called uh you’re hello you were redirected here

because you’re wrong about section 230 and then he has like all these topics about why you’re wrong so i’m going to

start building it up because it’ll just save me time over time it’ll save me time because then i can just say okay go to section

17 that’s where that’s why you’re wrong about ip sure sure it’s it’s funny so so i i have uh you

know i ran for chair twice in the in the party uh lost once to nicola starwark by a large margin

lost to uh our now disgraced former chair uh joe bishop henchman by a slim margin

in 2020 and then uh and then i just had this little kind of interim run that i lost by another slim margin so i i’m the second

best chair candidate for the last three years in a row uh but um i last year so

during this time that i’m running for chair i had all these people attacking me all the time really badly attacking me just nasty

[ __ ] all the time and you know i was always kind of like i’m running for chairs so i got to like learn how to talk to people correctly

and not come at them all crazy and last year i decided i was no longer going to capitulate to any of these [ __ ] and i was going to call them

names and make fun of them and uh you know you kind of you kind of got an online presence like that too where you

you you really uh you’re really brash and bold with people and it’s it’s funny and people laugh about it

and you know yeah it’s kind of turned into a thing uh i’ve changed over the years too i

mean in person as you can tell now and in person everyone thinks i’m sweetheart and i’m nice and i am

um and online uh with people that are serious and sincere i’m often blunt because

you know time is short and and the format is short so i just give an answer and i figure also if you

if you if you’re going to run away sniveling and crying with a clear blunt answer then it’s a

waste of time anyway that’s what gets to the point but people that are not serious

um you can tell right away because i’ve dealt with these thousands of these people you know they don’t ask real questions they’ll they’ll bark they’ll bark

rhetorical or loaded questions that you like like we were talking about before we started like this guy like oh yeah well

how would you like it if i took your book and i published it with my name on it i mean they’re they’re actually not real

questions they’re not really asking you a sincere question they’re they’re assuming some kind of answer like they’re

assuming that everyone would realize that that would be obviously absurd so they’re trying to like

implicitly say that they’ve shown that you’re a hypocrite or that you’re you’re you’re advocating for so they

don’t want to make a clear argument because then they would have to defend it so those kinds of people i just go right to the chase on

and i figure 99.9 of the time it’s a waste of time with them

although on occasion i’ll have someone come back to me two or three years later and they’ll say oh i argued with you three years ago but

now i see i was totally wrong that does happen on occasion but so i do it just for the people

watching so they can see how pathetic the arguments of the status and the socialists and the pro-ip people

are sure sure absolutely and and uh there there’s a lot of funny there’s a lot of funny arguments when it

comes to ip because there’s just so many things encompassed in ip and uh ludwig von mises pieces which is the

uh guy who made your shirt thank you for the two dollar uh the the two dollar super chat and then

top laps to one up them with the same question with a three dollar super chat asking should copy pasta be subject to

copyright so that’s pretty funny uh i don’t i don’t know do you think you should copy pasta remind me what coffee

pie so it’s when somebody puts out like a long like we we like copy pasta your i’m a heavyweight tweet right like we took

that and then spread it all over the place the same tweet all over you know uh that’s that’s copy pasta so

you copy and paste it all over the place and and and as a response to other people so it’s like

stealing something that you said and making it your own argument uh well you know um there’s two answers

in the law and then and and libertarian version view of what the law should be of course any copying any copying should be legal

um there’s really nothing wrong with copying whatsoever even libertarians that say well it’s fraud and this

it’s not it’s not copyright violation but it’s fraud even that is wrong usually i think we have to have a very high

threshold for what fraud is and we have to define it carefully libertarians are too loose on that they’ll say well if you sell a book with

you with your name on it that you didn’t write that’s fraud it’s like no it’s not um not necessarily and probably not very

rarely would that be fraud it’s just lying and dishonesty we have to be careful not to say that lying in

dishonesty um is something that would be illegal or a rights violation uh in fact most of most of the time

reputation would take care of that people just look like idiots you know if i said i wrote if i wrote the bible or if i wrote

romeo and juliet everyone’s going to say what what the hell are you talking about you know i wouldn’t be defrauding them

if i tried to sell the bible online with my name on it as the author yeah any more than i said hey i’m god

okay yeah people will probably laugh at you they’d be like excuse me yeah so the answer is okay and then the

law copy pasta probably it is copyright infringement in some cases everyone assumes that if

it’s not for profit it’s protected by fair use but that’s not how fair use works that’s just one of the four factors

of fair use um so it’s it’s not always clear that um i mean in fact one of the

factors is the extent of the work that was copied so if you copy like one paragraph out of a big novel

that that weighs against that weighs in favor of fair use but if it’s just a short meme that

you’re copying you’re copying 100 of a short thing so that weighs against fair use which

means it is like copyright infringement i mean it’s absurd but that’s the way the law works sure there was a study some law

professors did a study about seven or eight years ago john tehranian and he added up the liability

every american has on average the average american citizen for just their normal everyday activities

that could be copyright infringement and because of the astronomical statutory damages awards

and willful infringement and all this kind of stuff oh that’s patent law but anyway the statutory damages for copyright

which is like 75 000 or 150 000 per infringing act okay so every one

of us is potentially liable for 4.5 billion dollars per year in damages every every american the 350

million people and that was seven eight years ago so it’s probably you know 500 million billion now

so every two people’s a trillion i mean the numbers don’t make any sense it it’s more than the solar system is worth

but that’s how copyright law works sure sure so we’re talking the law here but we’re not talking about what you believe

personally so give us your best case against intellectual property and and why you’re so anti-ip uh the

best case is that um so i’m a libertarian for principal reasons like because i believe in i’m against bullying basically and

i’m against people hitting each other right and hurting each other which is the kind of libertarian non-aggression idea

um basically it’s the randian idea that you have the right to do anything you want in life as long as you don’t commit a rights

violation against someone else which means you don’t you don’t use their property without their permission which is trespass

or use their body without their permission which would be some type type of assault and battery um so that that’s the basic legal rule

and what that really means if you think more about it is that we believe in property rules that are assigned

based upon a couple of simple principles one is um everyone owns their own body and number

two for other things in the world we can find out who the owner of a thing is by asking who had it first

and did you get it by contract from a previous owner so that’s it contract first use and self-ownership of your

body so those are the basic rules that determine who owns a resource and intellectual property laws basically

take those property rights away and they give it to someone else so in the in the law there’s something

called a negative easement or a negative servitude which is when you sign a contract with like a neighbor and you give them a partial property

right in your home they can’t use it but they can prevent you from using it in a certain way so

that’s what restrictive covenants in neighborhoods are so like you can you can you can prevent you can

you can tie your hands and prevent your yourself from using your property in a certain way

and your neighbors can do the same so then you all know that your neighborhood can’t be used for certain purposes that’s perfectly fine if it’s consented

to just like a girl who gets kissed is if she consents to it it’s fine but

if you if you kiss a girl without a consent it’s it’s battery right uh it’s a trespass

and the same what patent law does in copyright law it it grants these negative easements to

third to other people even though the owner of what’s called the burdened estate

never consented to it so it takes their property rights away so for example a patent holder can

prevent me from using my factory which i own and my body which i own and my resources like my raw materials

to make an object like an iphone or a mouse trap or an airplane or a carburetor you know or something

something that’s patented so it gives this other person this negative easement or this veto right

over my own property but i never gave it to him by contract so it’s a taking of my property so the

fundamental problem with ip law is that it it undermines the three basic principles that

underpin all of libertarianism and all of private law and all of justice in the western world uh for thousands of years it basically

lets other people have a say so in how your property can be used that’s the problem with it now once you

identify an act of aggression which this is then you can start talking about the the consequences of it or the damages

it does do lots of damage in the case of copyright it censors free speech and distorts culture and it gives the

government um the government gives the other people um the right to

websites and things like that so threaten speech free speech on the internet and the internet’s a big tool against the state so you don’t want to threaten

that and patents impede innovation which which impoverished the whole human race because the way we get richer over

over time is not by finding more raw materials because the earth is finite but it’s by improving our recipes

and our technological knowledge every generation and we can use more and more of that that the human race develops so anything

that prevents you from using that knowledge or prevents you from spreading it or prevents you from developing it

right or slows it down basically kills human beings by making us poorer than we would be that’s

that’s the ultimate cost of the patent system it’s hard it’s horrendous i believe i think it’s it’s it’s genocidal

almost sure sure shout out to rich clock for uh for dropping the exact same super chat with an extra dollar

uh thank you i appreciate it okay let’s talk about so so i talk about the only time i ever really

personally talk about patent law is when i talk about the the big pharma right

and and pharmacology and and uh and the medical industry in general how has

how have these patent laws really destroyed the the medical industry oh well so there’s

a there’s sort of an unholy alliance between different aspects of of our modern society

all the result of government interventions and they they play they they they link together uh patent laws

one the fda is another the tort system is another um and also the control the government has over the

whole medical health care system where we have prescriptions for drugs and so you have doctors who

recommend things that just to avoid tort liability right and then they have to recommend

prescription drugs instead of homeopathic remedies because that’s what is approved and what insurance companies

pay for because of the perverse incentives of the insurance system right uh the the health care system by the it

all links together and then the fda imposes all these costs on the drug manufacturers

which they then need to recoup by having a monopoly which is what the patent system is so

innovation is slowed down and we doctors end up recommending a lot more of these artificial drugs

than i think that they would in a free market system so you’d have you’d have more resort to natural remedies

less resort to artificial things and the prices would of everything would be so much cheaper

but it’s all just ruined by this by this whole system uh then you have uh i mean there’s a you probably would

like this uh i think you’re uh i mean on the covet issue there’s a there’s an hour-long video by a guy

who’s extremely knowledgeable his name is dr david david martin i’ll send you the link um

he’s extremely knowledgeable about the science of coronavirus and

sars and even hiv and stuff like that and also the patent system and i i couldn’t quite follow all of his

talk because he doesn’t tie it all together and he assumes some basic knowledge of the history of the coronavirus

stuff but it looks like the coronavirus that the vaccine

allegedly protects now was known almost in the last 20 10 20

years um in in many patents that have been that are already described so there’s something funny going on

there with the with the way that the patent system interlinks with the profit motive of the pharma companies and then getting the

government to require it and um and recommend it and approve it so

the patent system is just part of of the government’s battling with human life it’s in the

health care area sure yeah absolutely i got another super chat from 1983 bantam i think i know who this is thanks

for the two dollar super chat he said ask kinsella if vax makes you magnetic uh they’re making fun of me because i i

i watched i watched this yeah i watched this 47 minute video of people sticking magnets to their uh to

their vac site and uh i posted it and i was like yeah this is pretty crazy everyone’s calling this a big coordinated scam it’s

happening all over the world and some people gave me [ __ ] for it i never tried someone tried to bribe me to ask

you that question um oh i bet i bet i know who it is so the guy that always [ __ ] with me online about it uh is

actually somebody who’s he’s got to be really close to the mises institute because uh they they have they one time to prove

that they weren’t like a fakertarian person they like took a picture of their book collection and it was like all these great mises

uh institute books and they all had like autographs in them and and like shout out notes and stuff so

it’s somebody it’s got to be somebody close to you guys i’m sure but i never said that i believed it i never said i don’t know some people some

people say some people say i have a magnetic personality but i don’t know if that’s because online by the way i said i said i had

covid i don’t know if i had coveted you know all i know is the test said yes i still don’t know if i had it or not uh but you may never

have you may never because the pcr test has been so uh it’s had so many issues who

knows what’s what at this point and that’s the problem really that’s been the biggest problem with covet is that none of us

really know what the hell is going on man you know what i mean it’s just so everything’s been so washed by

the government narrative and then the media narrative and then the the politicizing of of it on both sides

it’s like you don’t you just don’t even know what to believe anymore you know what i mean well you know the patent thing so you’ll hear the so the government is so

incoherent about this whole thing right so uh it’s sort of like the ip the china ip theft thing

you have you hear biden and trump and all these guys always saying oh china’s stealing ip they never explain what they’re

talking about china is literally not stealing rip because ip is a domestic law like it’s literally

impossible for china to violate usip law whatever they do in their own country is

totally within their rights under international law and under the law and they do have a

patented copyright system so they’re not violating r.i.p um so they don’t have to talk about in on the on the on the coronavirus thing

so now they’re saying like oh the u.s should should um should waive the patent rights of the

big pharma companies so the whole thing is weird because all these people are in favor patents

and now they want to waive them although

it’s not clear what they mean they’re not explaining what they mean by waiving them the government doesn’t have the right to waive them the government has the right to issue a compulsory license

because the government issues these monopolies so the government maintains the right to basically pull them back they have the statutory

right to do so and they can they can pay compensation if they do that they threaten to do that with the with the anthrax thing about 15 years

ago when there wasn’t enough of the cipro going around because someone had a patent on it they threatened to bust

their patent by issuing a compulsory license so the government could just do that right now if they wanted to but what’s weird is

i mean when did the vaccine start according to the conventional story about a year ago

a year and a half ago they started working on a vaccine i don’t even think it was a year and a half ago it’s been okay so they got a vaccine out in a year

basically patents as far as i know usually take at least one two three years from when you file it

before the issue as a patent so everyone’s talking about hundreds of patents but how can there be hundreds of

patents on coronavirus if they just started getting the vaccine

what six months ago so they couldn’t have filed patents until six months ago when they finally had a vaccine that was

working so i don’t know what patents there would be out already anyway i’ve never seen anyone point to one so i don’t know what

they’re i don’t think they know what they’re talking about either sure well and let’s talk about some of these orphans

it’s sort of like inflation the government complains about inflation but of course they cause inflation right remember during carter they had these

buttons whip inflation now when they’re saying we need to fight inflation you know that we’re causing

so the government’s complaining about patents that they grant it makes no sense sure i i wanted i wanted to just bring

up uh the pharma douche um uh uh martin shkreli who i think might still be in jail but

uh so i don’t think people understand that you know these patents will run out right

eventually and and then some of these drugs become what’s called orphaned and someone can pick it up and get like

an extended patent right well it’s complicated i think what happened in the

martin shkreli case if i recall uh everyone talked about it as a patent problem but i think it was already

the patent had already expired but what they can do is they can get the fda

so what usually happens is uh the fda gives you approval then you can

be the exclusive seller of it under an fda grant because you have a patent now you can stop people from making their own but

once the patent runs out they still your competitors can’t make it until they get fda approval which is what generics are but sometimes

the fda will refuse to grant the generics for a while to give you an extra monopoly period

time for some kind of reason so it’s sort of like an artificial patent type right that the fda can grant and i

think that’s what this um this was an epi some kind of epipen or something i don’t know

what for for martin shkreli it was uh it was kind of it was a spill that like 10 000

people in the country were using it was very i think it had something to do with helping for uh

some kind of viral pneumonia due to hiv or something

yeah so i think he had he had a quasi monopoly on it because of the fda system not because of the patent system i think

and um so he just restarted charging monopoly prices which hey you can do that if you have a

monopoly that the government gives you so everyone’s complaining about what he did but he did what

it would be not natural to do if the government gives you a monopoly take advantage well it was the le the left came out and just like totally

villainized him but if you actually look back at the whole situation i think he was trying to prove how

messed up the system was because he literally came out and said if you can’t if you can’t afford this

drug then uh we’ll give it to you for free but i’m going to charge the insurance companies all this money

and show you how how this system really works so i think you know he got villainized but i think he was really trying to prove something

you know they have i don’t i don’t remember i think he went to prison for something unrelated completely it was some

securities or something some you know some kind of crazy [ __ ] that rich people always do i don’t know uh so what are you are you familiar with

like open source like software the the free open source software movement yeah is it is it possible to like

use that as a strategy to like promote this anti-ip thing do you think not well only in that you

can it serves as an example uh which is a counter example to the utilitarian or

empirical argument some people make for copyright they’ll say that you can’t make money

without copyright so the business model wouldn’t work and so then you could say well i think

the majority of software now is open source so it’s not done under the copyright monopoly and yet

it’s still thriving so you can use it as sort of a counter example to the stupid argument that you need copyright to make a profit off

of written works including software um the i don’t like i mean if without

copyright there would not all software would be open because there would be no copyright

you so the problem with the open source movement is that they rely on what’s called like a copy left

type license which is it’s like they they rely upon the license of the the copyright on the software that

allows them to prevent other people from using it and they condition their license their permission on people adopting a similar

license so they’re saying you can use this but only if you grant similar restrictions

on everyone else so that my little copyleft idea filters down the line like that

um that’s sort of like cc uh uh on the creative commons

see uh cc essay share alike that’s like cc share

alike uh i prefer to just use to open as much as possible without conditions

which would be ccby which means you only have to give credit or even better cc0 just make it public

source um but so i and most of the most of the open source people they’re

skeptical of the abuses of copyright but most of them are not really copyright abolitionists sure sure

uh so i got a couple more super chats rich clarks dropped another one he said how do you feel about the right to repair

do you think right to repair is a good way to red pill people i mean this is another issue where it’s

an issue what mises called it’s an example of interventionism controls breed controls he said

so what happens is we’ll sort of like people say the fda screws up the drug approval process so

you need patents to give companies um a monopoly so they can recoup the

costs that are artificially high because of the fda system so one government program requires another and in this case the

copyright system is what allows manufacturers of of of products

high-tech products like tractors anything with software in it now right tractors or iphones

it allows them to basically prevent people from having it repaired by third-party

unauthorized repair people because it would be it would it would be a copyright infringement

so they they get to and if you didn’t have copyright the only way that a manufacturer would

say like apple want to do that with their iphones the only way they could do that is if they made the buyer sign a contract

saying i promise not to repair this myself or have anyone repair it except for apple so you’re you find a customer

willing to give you 900 bucks for a phone and you’re asking them to sign something imposing liability on them for fixing

the thing that they just bought that would be pretty uh pretty unpopular with customers i

believe it would cost apple money to do that because you know they’d have to they’d have to lower their price to make the

phone worth it so they would lose they would lose out on profits so i don’t think these business models would work without copyright

so what happens now is because copyright law leads to companies preventing consumers from

doing what naturally they would have a right to do instead of abolishing the source of the problem which is copyright

they want to give consumers this this right to repair and if it only restricted the copyright

of the holder i would be in favor of it it’d be a way of restricting copyright but as far as i understand it these

right to repair laws they want to force the manufacturers to reveal source code and and design information

on the products they sell to these third-party repair shops or to the customers so because they cause the problem they

want them they want to they want to violate the rights the property rights of the manufacturers

with these right to repair laws so i don’t favor the right to repair laws completely because part of it is unjust like

forcing a manufacturer to reveal the information publicly but on the other hand if they

didn’t have if they weren’t enforcing their rights with with ip patent or copyright then consumers would probably have the

ability to get them repaired by third parties anyway sure sure uh i just got to give a huge

shout out i caught i i don’t always catch all this all the chats because some of them are small the super chats are always bigger i can see

them pretty well uh but my friend katie’s rising who is in a lot of the shows good friend of mine uh

from from twitter just stated that he’s uh sitting in the labor and delivery room

with his wife watching break the cycle this baby’s gonna come out of freedom fighter thank you dude that’s so cool tell your wife uh i said

hello and uh congratulations i hope everything goes smooth as you know we just had two in this

house in the last couple months so it’s been it’s been a little while for us um almighty beach thanks for the

super chat he said he mostly uses open source software especially linux in fact he prefers open source software

and i know he’s big-time computer guy so um what was the other question i wanted to talk to oh

uh let’s see oh you know my friend from twitter den in the world who uh actually helped me

set up my new microphone that mr tom woods sent me what a sweetheart uh he i think he’s trying to pull a joke

on me but he wants he wants me to ask you uh what do you think about ip freely [Laughter]

pretty sure that was a joke but you know there is an actual author named ip freely on uh on online that’s like a clown

comedian uh an author so i i you know i figured maybe he was either playing a joke on me

or you knew about the author i don’t know no i’ve just heard the joke before but i’ve never heard of the author i figured

i figured uh i i figured i’d ask it anyways um so let’s see i have uh oh you know what

let’s let’s delve into this this um this post-libertarian stuff for

a minute because i know you’re you’re big rothbard hop up mises libertarian so the the nap

or the non-aggression axiom or whatever you want to call it that’s a central tenet uh to what you

believe correct um i think the yes but the

non-aggression principle for me is just a shorthand for a set of property rules but yes sure

sure so this post-libertarianism thing that’s kind of popping up now and i’ve had a bunch of people on i’ve talked about it

with a bunch of people on other shows and stuff and it’s really kind of started coming out of

like the piquinones uh side of the movement stuff where they’re they’re kind of abandoning that that nap

thing right and uh you know still keeping a lot of we still want the property rights we still want all this stuff but uh

we have you know 80 percent of the people in this country um don’t they don’t want

freedom they don’t want to be free they don’t want liberty they want to continue to use the government to

force their will or to make them feel safe so they’re kind of moving on from this well we’re not going to aggress on you

and starting to take this more like aggressive stance i don’t know have you have you listened to any of the

the shows about this stuff at all i don’t think so it’s not really ringing a bell um i mean

i’ve known for quite a long time that most people are not libertarians sure i don’t know what kind of

revolutionary insight that’s supposed to be sure um i i’m aware of some people that

uh don’t like the in the non-aggression principle but basically to my mind look there’s a big diversity

in our movement and mine is uh libertarian theory that’s what i like

um it’s not about strategy it’s not about activism it’s not about thickism um if you want to blend it with other

things and be a thicker that’s fine if you want to be an activist that’s another thing if you want to have different tactics and strategy if you

want to be an incrementalist if you want to be you know moved to puerto rico that’s fine if you want to move to new

hampshire but most of the people that are hostile to the non-aggression principle

they say that they just think it’s bad messaging but i think they really say it because

they don’t like how it constrains some things they want to do right just like status status and

non-libertarians don’t like our non-aggression principle because while most people oppose aggression most

of the time right their favor of laws against murder they’re not against aggression all the time that’s what libertarians are we’re

consistent we’re principled we believe we’re against aggression period all the time um so so

if you want some aggression to be permitted you’re going to rebel you’re going to oppose the non-aggression principle so you want the state to exist

you want to be able to tax you want to have an army and government roads and government schools and

a welfare system and police and courts all funded by the state and you want to be able to put people in

jail for evading the draft or for not paying their taxes or for smoking marijuana then you need

to have some exceptions to the non-aggression principle so when whenever someone is opposed to the non-aggression principle i just want

to ask listen are you opposed to aggression or not because if you are then i don’t care what terminology you

use but you agree with the non-aggression principle but if you if you’re in favor of aggression then that’s why you’re opposed to the

non-aggressive principle because you’re basically a criminal or you’re an advocate of criminality or you’re a statist

so which one is it so i always want to cut to the chase and find out

what what is it just a strategy or tactic or a word for you or do you really favor aggression and

then they’ll they’ll do this stupid thing they’ll say uh well everyone believes in aggression

because we need to enforce laws so then they do this that’s an equivocation right they’re trying to say that force is aggression of course force is

not aggression we libertarians don’t oppose force so they’re saying that if you have any law whatsoever or if you defend your

rights then you’re committing aggression so they’re trying to cheat they’re trying to say that well we libertarians believe in force

which we do but we don’t believe in initiate initiated force right only defensive force

um so those libertarians or those people i don’t think are libertarians because

they really want to find room for some deviations from vegetarianism

whether that’s left libertarians right who want um or mutualist types who want workers to

be able to or or tenants of of of of of buildings or workers and factories to

be able to take over the ownership of those things basically stealing it from the landlord or from the from the remote

distant owner absentee owner um which is theft or an aggression um or whether they’re

just full-blooded status so um i don’t know you tell me if i’m

missing something what does post-libertarianism maybe well i actually have somebody in the uh in the chat nap time saying

post-libertarians recognize the nap they just believe you have a right to defend yourself and should right now uh i’m guessing

from the government so we’ll get into that but but yeah i mean that’s a good that’s also a good

question how i mean how far should we let the government push us uh before we kind of step out of this let’s

just be peaceful and sing kumbaya stuff i guess yeah and to me that’s a strategic or

maybe even a practical uh moral or practical issue

which i don’t claim any special expertise on um you have to decide what you what you

willing to put up with in your life you know irwin schiff died or went to prison for income tax evasion he was not in the wrong but was it prudent for him to do

that and did it do any good um i think sometimes you have to stand up but i guess it’s a question of

strategy i don’t think we’re going to defeat the state and achieve a significantly higher

degree of liberty by isolated acts of protest or violence

against state actors even though it might be theoretically just in some cases to use

force against any government actor who’s basically using aggression against you by enforcing state laws

i don’t think that’s a way to achieve liberty it might be satisfying in some cases but i think liberty liberty comes out about from in

different ways sure sure uh rich clark thanks for the super chat he said biggest super chat gets the name

uh cadis baby so i i don’t think that that’s true but you know maybe maybe so uh let’s talk a

little bit about hoppa man i got a guy who wants to know your views uh on hapa’s resurgent popularity so we

all know that you know hapa has kind of gained this huge popularity over the the last

i don’t know five or six years at least or maybe more what are what are your views on that is that pretty cool for you

um the the sort of mimification of hans is kind of funny i’m not sure why it

happened uh i guess it’s hard to explain why these memes happen um i can’t explain it i don’t think hans

understands it himself i think i know i know he finds it amusing um

i never i didn’t even quite understand there was one some some guy wrote a hit piece on him recently in one of these

lefty lefty uh rags because of this um is it a snake i think it was one of

these kind of alt-right snakes the snake meme i’ve seen the pepe the frog meme and the frog

yeah and the helicopter memes are kind of funny um but uh you know people people blending

hapa’s physical removal stuff i don’t know i think people some people

just find hans’s whole personality to be uh uh interesting intriguing for some

reason yeah i it’s it’s kind of been funny to me like so i never i didn’t read a lot a lot of hapa um

until recently um and then i got into the democracy and uh you know it was like it was like i had

so many people like oh yeah he’s he’s this he’s a nazi he’s this and then i just can’t i can’t find it

um yeah yeah you know i don’t it’s not that i’ve always agreed with every single thing that hapa has said but

like you know 99 of it it’s pretty pretty dead on um and one of my favorite things uh from

from hapa and i understand is probably one of yours is too is the the argumentation uh uh ethics right yeah so that’s the

first thing i read by him in in 1988 in law school and he wrote he there was a symposium in liberty magazine where he

came out with that and that in that intrigued and fascinated me and blew my mind and i still love it yeah

yeah i mean can you can you talk a little bit about that and what it was that drew you to that and stuff

um it’s i don’t know if it’s coincidence or not but i had just i had just learned about

something in contract law in law school called estoppel which is this idea of natural justice sort of an equity law

where you’re not you’re not permitted to make a claim in a legal in a legal context

if that if that claim is inconsistent with with behavior you manifested earlier

because you’d be able to have it both ways so if you acted like something was true then you can’t claim it was not true later

so that idea was in my mind when i read his argumentation ethics and i just struck me ah

this makes so much sense it was basically an argument that um i think it’s it’s misunderstood and

mischaracterized but the argument is basically that the libertarian idea the non-aggression principle self-ownership

natural rights to property this basic idea is implicit in the very nature of civilized

peaceful human interaction right because it’s all based upon peace like if you have peace as

your basic norm or your basic value like if you want to have a way for human beings to cooperate and live in

peace among each other you’re going to seek a type of rule that defines who owns what so that we

can do that so we don’t have conflict with each other so that’s what property rules are property rules are the response

to the problem of conflict given the desire for people to avoid that and to

have peace so his point was simply recognizing that that like in

in any human interaction where we’re civilized and peaceful we’re presupposing the value of peace we

all are so how can you make an argument for a system which violates peace and

which which causes conflict so he tried to make it more formal in his argument by saying that

any justification for any socialist ethic which is any ethic that’s not the libertarian ethic right

he defines socialism broadly to be any institutionalized interference with private property claims

not just centralized ownership of the means of production but in general it’s the institutional interference with

private property rights any argument for that would be arguing

against peace while you’re in an argument where you’re presuming the value of

peace so there’s a contradiction so all he’s really doing is pointing out that uh the only

ethic any set of peaceful human beings that are engaged in civilized discourse could ever

argue is something that’s compatible with that peaceful you know context of the argument itself

and that’s libertarianism so only libertarianism is consistent with that because we favor rules that permit peace to be

possible by having property rules that are natural and just and fair that we can all respect and

we could live in peace together if we all respected those rights whereas any other ethic causes conflict

and in is basically aggression and it’s not argument it’s the use of force and the use of might not the use of right

so that just intrigued me and so i started writing on it i wrote my own theory which is based on the estoppel idea which is sort of a cousin of his

idea and that’s how hans and i became friends when i wrote him um excuse me when i wrote him i sent him

an artic a copy of an article i’d written for a law review which is a long positive book review essay

of his book which which has that but i was intrigued by a lot of his

other earlier arguments too his economics ideas his political insights this is way before his democracy stuff

his two two chief books before that was um a theory of socialism and capitalism and

then the sequel um the economics and ethics of private property those are just full of so many great insights about the

nature of property um and of course he criticizes nazi germany

and in the book explicitly he wasn’t he wasn’t a fan of fascism shocking well yeah and a lot of

people kind of hold this like uh this this weird you know view about him being a big-time monarchist and all this

stuff and do you know do you know why that’s always coming up when when we talk about uh haunter mahapa

well i think it’s a couple of things there’s some people just want to smear him and so they’ll just say whatever they

can to smear him um he’s explicitly said he’s not a monarchist he’s not in favor of monarchy

he thinks monarchy would be a violation of rights because it’s not anarchist anarchy is the ideal system all he

points out is that monarch the conventional idea that uh this weak theory of history which even

rothbard and mises some of these guys seem to share was that although democracy modern

western liberal democracy is not perfect it’s further down the road it’s closer towards our ideal system

so that when we moved from the ancient world from the from the ancient regime of monarchies after world war one and

towards a more democratic world that was progress everyone thinks that was progress um and this is sort of in line with the

libertarian idea that the where we have a rosy view of the founding fathers and the declaration the

constitution and all this stuff we kind of treat that like it was a proto-libertarian you know libertarian

party has the freaking liberty bell and you know the torch and the statue of liberty all everywhere and the constitution’s

everywhere and the u.s flag as if all this stuff was libertarian you know hey just just like hans didn’t like

the nazis in germany i don’t like our founding father followers either he’s not libertarian um so

the point is hans said that look when you move from monarchy to democracy it wasn’t completely

unalloyed progress in fact it was in some ways retrogression because democracy is worse than monarchy in many

respects because the incentive that the rulers face is short-term um

you know it turns into a welfare state whereas a monarch as kind of a idealized private owner of

the whole country has incentives in place to have controls over the quality people

coming to the country immigrants and uh not to tax too much because you don’t want to cause a civil

civil war or revolution um and you don’t want to uh you know you want the country to be prosperous so you leave you leave

so anyway his point was simply a relative one that monarchy is better than democracy in many respects

and so we shouldn’t we shouldn’t we shouldn’t turn a blind eye towards the problems of democracy and think of it as as a step

down the road towards towards a libertarian paradise democracy is full of problems and is not anything

like the ideal solution unlike say francis fukuyama’s idea that we’ve reached the end of history

um with this kind of a quasi-ideal state which is sort of the neo-liberal

neoconservative view of things now sure yeah absolutely and in a lot of respects i mean anybody

who actually pays attention would know that there was some benefits to monarchy for sure uh and that democracy is just

an ugly terrible uh god that failed right absolutely i mean um look at

liechtenstein or countries or switzerland switzerland monarchy anymore i don’t think but countries like that

they tend to be smaller in territory number one um you know you know who the enemy is if

you have a bad and hans points out that you know at least with monarchy sometimes you can have a good monarch

like maybe sometimes they’ll be evil and horrible but in that case they can be killed you know how to kill right

but sometimes you have a good monarch but you never have good leaders in a democracy but the system

worked the worst rise on top is hayek pointed out so you you never have that he tells a story of a friend of his

i think it’s not apocryphal i think it’s true one of his friends was um um at an atm late at night in some city

and some guy walked up to him and robbed him right and then it was like three in the morning and the guys the guy told the

robbery because you took all my money i i was gonna take a cab home so the robber gave him 20 back

so at least sometimes you might have a robber who’s even kind of nice you know a little bit but you never have democracies and

democratic leaders who are good sure sure absolutely well and when you got you know 51 percent of

the population voting against 49 and you got to go along with their [ __ ] it’s uh yeah it can get it can get a little a

little hard uh for sure uh almighty beach says who was the toughest person stefan has debated

against and why

there there are a couple um on ip never anyone yet um

there are a couple of people that i could debate on ip that that would have some somewhat of a challenge um but

most of them wouldn’t debate um i don’t know um i guess um

well jan hellfeld on menarche versus anarchy you know he jan’s that old 70s relic 80s relic left

over randy and libertarian who is good when he annoys status like nancy pelosi

and people like that by pestering them with repeated monomonical questions but when he does

it to us he’s doing it from anarchy point of view so he’s like uh something like uh when you if you’re

alone in the desert if you’re in the desert with someone else and there’s one bottle of water and you you it’s not enough for both of you what

would you do you know so he posted these questions like these these lifeboat questions where basically there’s tragedy there’s no

there’s no good solution and that’s supposed to be some kind of argument that we need a government i don’t know how government’s supposed

to stop tragedy from happening because lots of governments failed to do that too or they create tragedy

yeah yeah i guess i can’t think of any good debates i’ve had um with anyone i felt that stumped by

wow we gotta get you we gotta get you in some better debates stefan yeah i usually hate debate formats

because they’re so stilted and boring i’d prefer to have a free-for-all like but most most other people don’t want that they want this boring debate

format um but hey i’m open to anything yeah it’s always it’s always about the oxford

debates now everybody likes those i mean even even dave smith enjoys the oxford debates these days i’m like come on man you’re a

stand-up comedian i guess i would say that i’ve had several um challenging

discussions with people they weren’t quite debates and probably the most challenging ones i’ve had have been people questioning me on argumentation

ethics like i think steve patterson we had one and there are some difficult

questions and argumentation ethics that are hard to answer in a short format i’d say my worst performance was probably

when i was on the stossel show um on ip because i only had like three

minutes and he just started out with this like how am i supposed to make money on my

show people can rip off my show and to unpack the assumptions there

would take an hour you know so i didn’t really have a canned answer ready that was satisfying um

i could have just said suck it up you might you might your show might not make it i could have said that but that wouldn’t

have gone over well well you could have just you could have just answered with listen john nobody can do that mustache besides

tom selleck anyways buddy you’re gonna be all right

yeah yeah you know he’s he he likes to do that he gets i like john but he gets a little yeah

you know it’s kind of funny uh and he does that to just about he does that to libertarians all the time uh top lobster

who’s the man who does all the art for the show he’s wonderful he says uh is ridicule the best way to discourage

theft of let’s say artwork because someone uh he makes a lot of really good shirts he hand draws everything and there’s been a

guy who’s been like stealing his designs and then putting him on his website and using his designs

so uh is ridicule the best way to deal with that man what do you think well i would never call it stealing it’s

it’s it’s copying so you’re saying what’s the best way to keep you from copying information that

you put out in the public so i don’t know if there’s a good way to stop people if you make something public

it’s like you tell people information what’s the best way to keep them from learning what you told them i guess not to tell

them in the first place keep it secret um but i think if people are

copying your stuff and not giving you credit or they’re sort of hiding the fact that

they copied it from someone or they’re pretending that they’re the author um

i think yeah ridicule could work they’re gonna have a bad reputation just pointed out pointed out that this

guy is lying i suspect that that’s not what’s going on though i suspect what he’s talking about is people that are just using his designs without his

permission they’re probably not pretending that they did they did it though i don’t know maybe he can explain

and in that case if they’re just using it about his permission uh i don’t know if there’s anything wrong with that so i don’t know if

ridicule would work um it might work now because most people believe that copying is stealing so

they’re ripping something off but i don’t think that that’s correct and i think in a copyright free world people would not

there would be no stigma attached whatsoever to copying any public information and reusing it

and competing with the original guy there would only be stigma involved in dishonesty like pretending you’re the original author

sure uh rodriguez this is one of my brazilian followers i i got a lot of really cool

brazilian followers on twitter and and i appreciate you guys a lot i just want to tell you uh he said

he said stefan talk about the brazilian bucket challenge josh brazil had the biggest liberty movement in the world stefan knows all about it peace

uh so you did this buckethead challenge for brazil yeah these brazilian guys

um and there do seem to be a lot of them up there and they’re all great they’ve translated a lot of my

works they had me down to brazil for a conference i was invited to other times but i couldn’t go

um and they asked me mr gonzalo would you please put a bucket on your head i thought they were i thought maybe the

spanish or the portuguese wasn’t being translated right and they meant something else and they said no i want you to put a bucket

on your head i’m like a real bucket like a plastic mop bucket yeah and i was

like why i was a little suspicious it was some kind of neo-nazi thing okay i didn’t know yeah but the guy assured me goes no no

it’s something it’s just for fun so i said okay what the [ __ ] so

i did it in a similar pictures and he he liked it yeah i’m actually looking at the pictures right now that’s a that’s a pretty good that’s pretty good kitchen

bucket but uh i want i want to explain it a little more because this is actually a really cool thing um and you didn’t i guess you didn’t

know about what the what they were actually i did not until tonight when you explained it to me i didn’t quite know what it was yeah

so he explained it to me he said the idea was uh to say that there were some hidden chapters and mentions of

bucket on some of hapa’s and mises books um he doesn’t remember exactly which at

the moment but uh there weren’t any but the catch is to have liberty people actually reading the books in order to understand the meme

and also to troll a little so so they came and asked you to do it of course you probably have read all these books

and and know that there’s no mentions of buckets so i don’t recall any any bucket mentioned in hapa’s books um

but it’s pretty cool that’s that’s actually a pretty good idea you’re like you know you tell people that there’s something in these books now they’re looking for

it they’re reading the books they’re important books they should be reading you should all be reading human action and the democracy that god failed at

least at the very least and and for me it’s everything rothbard’s ever written i’m a huge you know i’ve been reading rothbard was

what got me into this this movement for new liberty changed my entire life uh it’s kind of like a window you open

and you just can’t close it again you know what i mean it’s like once you crawl through it yeah i was re i was rereading for a new liberty

recently and i i didn’t enjoy it as much as i did early on but but the ethics of liberty

is my probably my favorite political book by him all and combined with power and market i

think if someone wants a good introduction to rothbard what i really think is the best thing to read by him um

is is a book that was called the logic of action one and two when it came out but it was it was republished under a

different title for copyright reasons i think it i think it’s called economic controversies oh sure

that’s a really good sample of a lot of his economic analysis um instead of reading

man economy state which is sort of like a systematic treatise that that’s a really

good one and another good one on a more popular level is um is one that rockwell and rothbard

co-edited and co-wrote in the 80s at this called the free market reader it was a selection of

stuff they wrote in this newsletter called the free market which used to be published by the mises institute um that’s that’s really good too as an

introduction sort of like on the lines of hazlitt’s economics one lesson yeah on the level if you and if you

really like essays uh this one is is probably my favorite egalitarianism is a revolt against

nature it’s a good one yes very good uh i i have a lot more books than this but they’re at my mom’s

for some reason in oregon send me my books mom uh uh so so steph we’re getting to the

end of this thing here of course we’re gonna go do an exclusive stream where we’ll talk about uh funny [ __ ] like your your uh your

scooter ride with sam ruff but what’s next for you man what do you got coming up

well um i am thinking about putting together um a

selection of my own favorite anarchist essays similar to what michael malus just did

in his anarchist handbook because as soon as he published it um i thought of the ones i would have

also included many of the ones he included i would have included and but some other ones so

i might put that together as a little book because that seemed to be uh popular and people seem to like that um and then i’m gonna finally finish my

my an edited selection of my own stuff called law and libertarian world um and then i want to do a because my

book on ip came out in two about 20 years ago and in the meantime i’ve written a lot of things

elaborating on it and come up with different arguments because people keep coming up with different uh

attempts to justify ip so i want to do a brand new book from scratch on ip

which has all the other stuff but some additional stuff and i i’m going to call that copy this book

and i’ve got some other book projects in mind too but um so i’m basically mostly retired i

mean i’m part-time i’m only working about five or ten hours a week on patent law

stuff so i have plenty time now to devote towards just libertarian traveling and speaking and

writing and have just having fun with it so that’s kind of where i am right now um

with my libertarian pursuits and projects nice nice neocon remover is going to be very happy uh mr burt

graham’s going to be very happy to see you put out a book called copy this book he’s probably gonna do it and then he’s gonna sell it and he’s gonna make tons

of money i’m sure but uh uh he’s he’s welcome to do it i i i would i would be happy if he did that

hey just gonna get you a little more attention right he can even put his name on it if he wants i don’t care

you live in live in the principles man living the principles steph and i’m a huge fan i really appreciate you brother can you

tell everyone everyone where they can support you how they can find you where they can buy your books all that great stuff

yeah uh i don’t want support i i’m my own benefactor and that’s fine um i i just like i don’t i don’t have

ads or anything i just like to do my stuff for the movement but my if you want to read my stuff it’s at

stefan kinsella.com and my ip stuff is c4sif.org see the number four

and i’m on i’m at ns my name is my name first name is norman so i’m ns kinsala everywhere like on twitter

and facebook ns kinsella nice nice i do want you to support me and i do

want your super chats because i do have seven kids that i have to support uh and a fiance who stays home with them

so uh there’s eight that’s that’s that’s uh that’s eight dependents if you’re counting it’s a lot i do i do a lot

but mr cosella i appreciate you uh please stick around and we will have our exclusive stream here in about

three or four minutes thank you so much all right guys ah man he’s so

knowledgeable i can’t keep up i’m not very good with the loss the law stuff but he’s uh he’s amazing and i’m

glad that he came on and explained everything for you guys uh he’s really awesome side thank you so much for the uh super chat

i will keep up the good fight they’ll never stop me i’m uh i’m i’m the blue collar man on a mission

so uh it’s gonna keep going forever guys check out my sponsors at laurenzotti.com for all your delicious italian coffee

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break the cycle sunset logo on it use btc at checkout or join patreon subscribe star uh both of them are

uh the websites slash break the cycle js you guys can get all kinds of really cool stuff there uh you can also

um uh get into a discord chat where uh top lobster drops all of his

uh brand new designs uh two weeks early and you get them at like a 30 discount so we’re talking really cheap

20 hoodies uh really really cheap shirts for like 12 to 15 and he’s got the best designs man he

just put out a really cool free ross old brick shirt that i hope everyone will buy i think it’s up on the website now it’s no longer in the

in the deep discount mode um and of course executive producers show anthemplanning.com for all your emergency and crisis planning needs

check them out today see what they can do for your business personal life or home they’re doing a job that government

sucks at for a much cheaper price and much more efficiently guys coming up on the show uh let’s see what do we

got what do we got going on here uh tomorrow my good friend i love saying this every time my good friend tom woods

will be on the show to uh defend his terrible views on hawaiian shirts it’s gonna be awesome

uh we’ll ask how his podcast failed so miserably uh of course i don’t mean any of that it’s

gonna be a good show tom’s great hopefully i’m gonna try to convince him to drink while he’s on the show uh also on uh

thursday thursday uh brad palumbo from fee that’s gonna be a cool show we got a lot of things to catch up on i’m gonna see if we can

get him to eat the uh the dreaded ketchup banana you guys might find out about that on the show and of course

friday mr austin peterson will be on the show to talk about trolling people for liberty uh we’re kind of uh kindred

spirits when it comes to that um guys if you want these exclusive streams that i’m doing every single

night uh after the show check out the join link under any of my videos on my channel

it’s gonna be uh it just says join if not you can scroll all the way up to the top of the live chat here i dropped the

link there when i first started for some reason my social media buttons are not working on my uh my stream deck tonight i’m probably

gonna have to reset all that stuff um but you can join that to watch them live right after these streams end

or you can join the patreon and subscribe star where you get some other cool swag and also get those uh exclusive streams uploaded the next

day after i do them but guys i will see you tomorrow uh for a very exciting show with mr tom woods until then

don’t forget to break the cycle [Music]

due to legal reasons i just have to explain

[Music]

the helicopter part was in reference to gta 5 and the things you do so when he

finds you [Music]

accusations of incitement getting totally old make your own choices yeah you have control because i just

[Music]

[Applause] [Music]

minecraft

you