KOL357 | Free Man Beyond The Wall Ep. 631 with Pete Quiñones: Biden’s Mandate and Getting to a Hoppean Framework

people people people richard Grobe is starting season six of his autonomy

course and you really should be there i don’t think I could have gotten through the last 16 months of this world without

the skills that Richard Grove gave me so head on over to freemanbyondtheall.comutonomy

check it out there’s two links there one’s to an overview of the course another is to a 19 skills PDF download

go check out that video sign up for the course and get on Richard’s level thank

you [Music]

[Music]

hello everyone i want to welcome you to the Free Man Beyond the Wall podcast this is your host Pinz i invited Stefan

Consella to return to the show stefan is a patent attorney and he wrote the book

against intellectual property i asked Stefan to come on and answer some

questions about Joe Biden’s mandate how constitutional he thinks it is what he

thinks is going to happen with it does he think that states are going to nullify it and then we’re just going to

start talking about a host of subjects we’re going to get into some hapa we’re going to get into some local politics

and we just get into a conversation like we normally have when we’re talking by ourselves

so without any further delay here is Stefan Canella

canella my man how are you doing i’m doing well how you doing good man let’s just jump right in because you are I am

so jealous of where you are leaving to go tonight uh you want to tell everybody i’m heading tonight to uh Bodum Turkey

through Istanbul with uh several of my friends are going too greg Moran from

Atlanta and Juan Carpio from Ecuador u who you know I think you met some

Anthony Samuroff um is going too and lots of Sedina Moose is going um of

course Hans will be there ho will be there so uh yeah this may be my 10th time we started this in 2006 I believe i

missed a few because of kid issues but um we missed last year of course because of COVID so I think it’s a truncated

group this year because of COVID we’ll see when I get there it could be smaller more intimate but anyway I’m I’m looking forward to it cool making plans for next

year wish I was one of that group okay so let’s just jump right in what are you

making of this mandate last week that Biden came up with and what do you think

the courts are going to say about it i haven’t I I don’t know i mean my first

impulse is that it’s outrageous of course but then you know there’s lots of things the state has done the last 200

years which are outrageous and they just didn’t get reported as much because it was before the internet i mean I’m not

so sure that uh it’s beyond OSHA’s purview because everything else OSHA does is insane too um

the best theory I’ve heard is that it will be struck down as illegal but not unconstitutional so uh Congress will

have to revise the OSHA rules or something like that to let them do this but I wouldn’t bet on it i’d say there’s

a 60% chance it will it will it will survive um which which is crazy i think

it’s totally unjust and unlbertarian and um I would say unamerican but apparently it’s not what do you think

completely insane i mean we’ve gone off the rails in 18 months if you would have told me back in January of last year

half the things that have happened people people have embraced and talked about federalism

the governor of California re referred to California as its own nation and then

that people would just not only comply Yeah with what every

with everything but become warriors for it almost like you know hey you know my

grandfather fought in World War II and he did his part and this is me doing my part and you know all I need to do is

stay home or yeah wear a mask and scallop people who aren’t wearing masks

or get this vaccine that you know I mean just a a strange mania has overtaken the

nation i don’t understand why because we’ve had previous pandemics and we didn’t have this happen maybe it just

Jeff Tucker and others have tried to explain why i still don’t quite get it but um I’m not quite as I mean I’m not

as much of a vaccine skeptic I think as some other people so I mean I’m still as a libertarian I’m against all the policy

issues the same way as you uh you and I had a little maybe disagreement on the Florida thing uh and the interesting

that happened before this Biden thing so my first thought was I guess I spoke too soon opposing Dantis but the

more I thought about it I still think I I’m back to my original view so in both cases you have the the federal

government trying to tell businesses what to do they’re trying to tell them you have to insist that employees are

vaccinated and in Dantis’ case he’s telling them what to do he’s saying you cannot request that or you cannot uh

require your employees to be vaccinated so technically they’re both unlbertarian

right but of course you know I guess you’re looking at it from more strategic or overall forest for the trees point of

view which one is really worse we know which one’s the big enemy as always it’s the federal government and the central state and in this case you know it’s

worse to force people to inject the vaccine into their body than to uh suffer a fine for asking your employees

to you know prove that they’re vaccinated I guess so I guess that’s how I come down on it but I still think

they’re both unlbertarian I guess is my my my my perspective yeah I think it and

I agree i mean private property is not is just out the

window at this point i mean correct the idea of it and I just look at what what’s more

strategic at this point so when you have when you have 18 months of insanity

and you’ve seen people suffer and you’ve I mean I I know p personal horror

stories that I I don’t even I don’t even talk about because I don’t have permission to talk about them and

you just look and you’re like okay so you know I was in Georgia up until recently i left Georgia and moved to the

Midwest um a couple months ago and Georgia came out of it and last week in

April last year said businesses can reopen if they want to and a lot of businesses reopen and stayed open um

cities did mandates which you know is really not I’d rather cities do mandates

than states you know the smaller you can get with the mandates the better you know so decentralized yeah yeah yeah and

just watching what happened down there and then hearing stories from friends in

California who are like look I’ve been we’re still locked down you know it’s like 12 months later we’re still locked

down 13 months later we’re still locked down it’s just like well I

You’re gonna have to try to do something politically absolutely and it’s going to be unlbertarian you know it’s not maybe

i mean you had I think Thomas Massie recommending civil disobedience which I think may be one way to go um you know

one thing I was posting on Twitter with all these libertarians favoring Dantis and I understand that you’re grasping at

any straw but Dantis is no you know it’s kind of pathetic that we we we praise

these governors for letting us do things right that we have a natural right to do

in Texas and in Florida these guys are not really on our side uh they’re just not as bad as the federal government but

what I was thinking was you know if you really were ballsy and had a sincere radical approach and wanted a strategy

um you ought to favor Dantis pulling a Tom Woods nullification thing and saying “Listen we’re we’re not just going to

we’re not going to find employers employers for for asking this they can do whatever they want but we think a lot

of them are asking for vaccination because of pressure from the feds we’re going to protect them from that pressure by interposing right doing a

nullification thing saying we’re going to use our state sovereignty we’re going to step step up to the bat and we’re

going to protect you from any penalties from the federal government in other words try to be ballsy and do a little

quasi secession thing and say “Listen the federal rules are null and void here

you do not have to comply with the federal rules you don’t have to ask your employees to get a vaccine we’re going to protect you.” I don’t know how you do

that i don’t know if it’d be successful but at least it would be a a valiant attempt i would think that’d be way

better than punishing employers for asking for vaccines

yeah I mean I agree with you 100% i can’t I can’t argue with you you know I know my I know my property my private

property principles i think we’re I thought you were going to say you know your place no oh god damn just joking

getting a heavy weight on here i got to be careful um but you know I think Dancis is also well

aware that he’s in the middle of a culture war and that a lot of these businesses are against him just because

he’s a Republican right just because he’s against this and in the middle of a

culture war what happens is people tend to any chance that they can get to

punish their enemies are going to take it yeah and I think that’s that’s where we’re at you know and considering that

this culture war you know and I mean you’ve you’ve studied enough Hapa and

when you see a culture war happening especially like what’s happening now okay so everything that’s happening in

the culture is absolutely insane people can’t tell what’s up or down anymore a lot of people are just they’re just

existing at this point and you have a tendency to go one way or the other and

it’s real easy to take sides and be like “Okay the left is ab the left is in

charge they control everything they control the media they control the institutions they control academia they

control big tech then let’s punish I’m all for punishing them as much as

possible even on a personal level because and it’s kind of hard to argue

against that because it’s just a a human emotion that you know it’s like all

right these people would want to destroy me you I mean these people want to like I mean I got I was one of the ones at

Porkfest that got sick and I got it bad I got it I had it for like two and a half three weeks where I was down where

I was down and I went through it i came through it i feel very confident from

what I’ve seen out of Israel that any kind of future I’m pretty well protected

against any kind of future outbreak and and um let me ask you a question i don’t

want you to hold me down and put and put the you know these people want people to hold people down and stick needles in

their arms and that to me is the enemy do you have any personal regrets about not getting the vaccine beforehand in

other words do you think that being vaccinated would have made your experience um not as bad

it probably would have made my experience not as bad but I still don’t regret it i’m still glad that I went

through it because I went through it probably as bad as

anyone that I’ve heard and Oh no no have you talked to Justin justin Arand arman

oh no no no no i mean I’m I went through of people that I’ve talked to okay and

I’m glad to be able to tell the story i’m glad to be able to say “Yeah I’m I’m overweight i’m over 50 and I pulled

through this thing and I’m fine.” Yeah you know and I can go up and down i can do all the same things I used to do

before it without any suffer without any suffering and everything and I don’t know man i just think that

this f this vaccine is going to turn into a flu vaccine it’s going to be like a yearly thing or a seasonal thing and I

never had a flu vaccine in my life you know and it just I I don’t know it’s just I’m a hard-headed prick you know

well yeah i mean I got to say I’m kind of glad I got I got it too after Portf Fest but I was vaccinated but um but my

case was very mild but I’m glad I got it because um I do have antibodies i’ve

checked and uh I’m going to Turkey tonight so I think the risk of me getting it while I’m there which would result in some kind of bizarre

quarantine or lockdown is reduced so I’m glad I got it um but I’m also glad I was vaccinated first but um but I understand

like you don’t want to do it if people tell you to do it even if it’s a good idea like you want to spite them right u

But everyone’s got a different opinion on this and that’s what that’s the way the world should be right some people are antivaccine like you are some people

say “I’m not antivaccine i’m just anti this vaccine right or I’m anti this vaccine right now.” I’ve had a tetanus

shot i had a tetanus shot a few years ago i’m not completely antivaccine i’m

just looking at this thing and it’s like I’m just like they were calling for a vaccine from

this like right from the start you know and I’m just like well wait a minute can we find out what this is for we don’t

even know where this came from right now yeah and it’s like we don’t know the origin of it we don’t know if it’s lab

lab made if it was gain of function if it came from a bat or a pengalin or whatever and it’s like I’d like to know

these things first you know and then talking to Ken Wakowski who is a

mainline doctor worked for Hoover University for years and years and years

has every vaccine known to mankind in his body has taken it into his body and

then when he heard about this he’s like I like the he said mRNA technology is

going to be the future he goes I’m just not going to get this vaccine right now because I need to see more testing on it

yeah yeah yeah and that you know that was that’s that sounds way too reasonable yeah yeah yeah i know yeah

it’s like that you know I had dinner it’s not like I I know the guy over Skype i had dinner or Zoom i had dinner with the guy i think I looked in his

eyes you know but that contradicts some of the Twitter advice by Joy Reid on on on Twitter so it’s got to be

unreasonable what do you think of all this and how much of a how much of an influence do

you think that like the insanity that goes on on Twitter carries out into the

real world i mean I think Twitter is more of a symptom than a cause but I guess it it

goes both ways um we do have this weird mania now and I do think that we’re

having I thought a year or two ago we had peak peak SJW or peak panic uh what

do you peak cancel culture but it looks like it’s just getting worse it’s got to reach a peak at some point look my view

on the co thing is same similar to yours i think the lockdowns have been horrible the the the mask mandates have been

stupid and horrible um the social distancing is stupid and horrible all of it’s been horrible um but I got to

believe as bad as it is it’s temporary um because I think we’re going to have fatigue at some point because we’re I

just don’t think everyone’s going to live like this forever although in the beginning of this in 2020 I wouldn’t

have thought it’d be a year and a half later either so I don’t know um I guess

I just don’t think that you know the top what do you what do what do you say the top five or six things are that the

state does the type the worst thing that government’s always done to us war the drug war taxation central bank

government schools intellectual property i know not everyone thinks it should be up there but those things right the

permanent things um I just don’t think that CO is going to be up there forever the response but um

if it is I think we’re screwed you know uh luckily we have an international system right so everyone’s

treating it differently like even Denmark and some other countries I think are are some of these other countries

are ending their lockdowns now even the UK refused to do one the other day uh to escalate it so maybe that fact will keep

us from keeping it forever because it will just become too obvious that it’s ridiculous uh I’m just hoping a year

from now we’re you know 90% back to normal maybe I’m being polyiana i don’t know i had talked about vaccine mandates

in March of last year i had talked about uh passports in March of last year uh

but I had actually said that I thought the masks would be gone by July of last year so I was way off on that one um I

wish I wasn’t as right about a lot of this stuff as I was because um

people seem to really like this they are enjoying the mania there are a lot of

people who are re it’s get I hate to say it this way because you know you’re a

successful person i’m a successful person we look we enjoy these I mean we get so much out of doing what we do

there are people out there whose lives are so empty that this actually gave them purpose i I agree it’s it’s it’s an

excuse to pile on like for example I was thinking recently about all these mandates uh like I think Biden or

someone in his administration is proposing um that you have to be vaccinate i think Fouchy proposed that

you have to be vaccinated to travel uh which could be unconstitutional but who

knows but the point is you could almost empathize or understand why they would

want the vaccine mandate um in general if they think it will protect people

okay we don’t agree with the means but you understand it but if you don’t exempt people that have had that have

had COVID and have recovered then it’s not really about protecting people right and for the travel thing

it’s almost like they see an excuse to punish people like it’s a it’s it’s not a way to protect people it’s a way to

hit them when it hurts the most to force them to go along for their social program right so yeah if you really want

to travel this is the price you have to pay you have to get the vaccine first it’s not really about protecting them

right um and they’ve changed their tune of course in the beginning everyone was saying the vaccine was to prevent you

from getting sick maybe not 100% but most people would prevent you from getting sick now they’re saying “Oh no

it was never about preventing you from getting sick now it’s just about reducing the symptoms which I think is still an a huge accomplishment and I

think it does that.” But that wasn’t the story right so now they’re changing their tune and you have Biden even

saying we need to force people to get vaccinated to protect the vaccinated people from the unvaccinated so it’s

like what the hell is your message even you know um

so yeah I’m I guess I’m with you on all this um but I feel like in a way we’re

repeating the same refrain uh we we all know what’s wrong with this

but we’ve been in this for 18 months now yeah the well when you look at like

comments like Lyanna Woo this doctor who used I think she used to be with the CDC

I can’t remember and now she’s she I can’t remember who she’s working for now but she was on Wolf Blitzer and she said

this was a while back she said we really need to use vaccines as a stick and we

need to basically restrict people’s freedom until they take it and you’re hearing that a lot I mean I just heard

an audio from like some hospital administrators out in the out um out

west who were saying we need to make this sound worse than it actually is and it when

you Alex Jones becau you can get real Alex Jones when you hear people talking like that it’s like why do they want

this thing in me so much yeah yeah we’re we’re really at the point now that

I’m expecting to see the term herd immunity like removed like newspeak like

just taken out of any kind of medical text or any conversation and anyone

who’s talking about herd immunity may as well be talking about like a um a geocentric universe

or Yeah yeah I mean

it’s a strange time we’re in you know it’s a strange time and then on top of that this has led to like a complete

ignoring of fiscal sanity right so now we’ve just gone from people kind of

worried a little bit in the background about this huge national debt from three four years ago and now it’s like it’s

doubled and we’re spending like three four five six seven trillion dollars extra and it’s like and we’re finally

seeing it we’re finally seeing that inflation the price inflation that you

we’ve been talking about since 2008 when they started printing trillions yeah and all the Yeah and all these idiots are

saying “Oh it’s a temporary thing it’s because of supply chain uh disruption because of co but it’ll it’ll settle

down it’s like no it’s not settling down it’s it’s um it’s about to happen you know we’re we’re seeing it happen yeah i

mean I just don’t know other than at this point I’m saying that local if

you’re going to take a make a political solution I really think that looking at like hapa what must be done is the thing

you should be doing and not you know just jumping right in hey we need to privatize the schools and everything like that but if you’re in a red area

and local and the local politicians are

of the same mind as you know you know no one should be forced to wear a jab your

should your kid shouldn’t be forced to wear a mask something like that then we really should maybe start working at

local politics and start building up those 10,000 Likensteines that you know Papa talks about of course um but that’s

not going to be good enough for a lot of people who are more impatient and they want something we can do right now um I

mean think about a businessman an employer in Florida right now um they’re

caught between two masters right because they’re being told by Dantis that if they require vaccines they’re going to

be fined and they’re being told by Biden that they must ask for they must insist

on vaccines so they’re they’re screwed what what are they what are you supposed

to do just leave Florida yeah I I know uh fire fire your employees to get below

that 100 employee threshold which is another ridiculous thing about the mandate like why would you exempt small

businesses from if it’s really a pressing issue why wouldn’t it cover all businesses well and considering that

small businesses out outnumber Exactly large businesses i mean but that’s one

of those things is people it’s a very it’s something that libertarians you know like say “Oh well you know if you

can vote with your feet.” Well not everybody can vote with their feet especially business owners business

owners are kind of stuck and business no one has been taking a beating on this in

the last 18 months more than small business owners because No it’s No of course not especially like landlords

right landlords are totally screwed because they’re demonized even though they’re they have to pay the bank for their mortgages

uh for their loans right and service their their buildings and yet they can’t collect rent and they can’t keep keep

people out it’s so you know because the the the banks have political clout and

then the poor have political clout you know they’re going to get protected but the the landlords are stuck in between and

there’s lots of other businesses that that don’t have a high profile that are stuck in between um but you had I think

you had Thomas Massie on when he was suggest he suggested that uh to to to escape the u to evade the

the the Biden mandate that you you ask your employer to treat you like a

contractor which of course is high is just as impractical as saying move change states um but it’s also probably

illegal i mean if you could escape you got 1099 everyone yeah this is why it’s

it’s this is Uber saw this in California you can’t just to call your employees

contractors to escape employment regulations otherwise everyone would do that i mean there there if you fit the

definition of employee you are an employee whether you’re you’re called that or not and if you try to evade it

then you’re evading taxes and regulations and all that you don’t have the option to just say “Oh I’m I’m an I’m a contractor.” um because you’re not

if you’re under the supervision of your company and there are certain criteria by by which you’re an employee so that that won’t work either so that’s futile

i I understand people trying it but most employers are going to say “No screw you.” Or because they’re they’re going

along with the with the propaganda anyway most employers they’re not going to be sympathetic to an employee saying

“Please reclassify me as a contractor.” Well could a say a company has 200

employees or say they have 190 employees could they just split it in half under I

think I think you you you could if they wanted to i actually think something similar to that happened uh when

Obamacare was introduced there were these different man thresholds that um where a certain size of employment base

meant you were subject to the to the regulations of Obamacare so I think like here in Houston there’s a restaurant

chain called Hillstone it’s a national chain it’s not that big but it’s Hillstones it’s kind of an up upscale

and one of their subbrands is called Houston’s which is not related to my city but there’s one here so that

Houston’s restaurant location here next to my house which we’ve gone to for years changed their name two or three

times they they were Hillstone then they were back to Houston’s then they were Hillstone now they’re back to Houston’s again and my understanding is they were

doing that because the corporation was re reorganizing to keep different subsidiaries under these limits to to

evade Obamacare regulations so I suspect some companies will do that for uh any

Biden mandate and then of course the bureaucrats the OSHA will just modify the rules i mean they’ll just change the

threshold down to 50 you know so this is by the way this is

this is one thing I’ve pointed out in my writing and others have too um like hapa

that one of the problems with making law in society by legislation which

administrative law and regulations are a subset um is that it increases uncertainty in society because you never

know what the law is because the government can just change the rule from day to day um if it’s the common law

that evolves and and organically comes about even if it’s an unjust rule it’s kind of like permanent or like slowm

moving so you can predict what it is at least so you can adapt and respond to it and if you change your business model to

to respond to whatever the law is even if you don’t like it then it’s going to be that way and you can you can adapt

but if if they can just change the rules the next day then you never know what’s going on and that’s bad for the economy it’s bad bad for planning it reduces

overall wealth and efficiency and that’s That’s the world we live in now how much

do you think that Bitcoin can help us a lot i think Bitcoin can help a lot because a lot of this just like war is

driven by the ability of the government to spend money that they don’t have right and they can only do that because

um they’re not limited by taxation anymore because of the Federal Reserve and the printing press and I I I have

hope that Bitcoin is going to I think Bitcoin might fix this too right bitcoin fixes so many things in potentially and

if you cut off the government’s printing press I mean how could they have paid for all those people to have the

unemployment benefits and the PPP payments and all this if they didn’t have um um their printing press if you

take the printing press away they’ve got a tax they can’t run a deficit they can’t they they just cannot spend money

they don’t have so I think Bitcoin could put them on a huge budget when you put people on a budget they have to act more

rationally so perhaps they could have changed a lot of this you know if the the if the politicians knew they didn’t

have 1 trillion 2 trillion 5 trillion 7 trillion to throw around to to throw

around it would have affected their calculus it would have had to have had i’m pretty sure it’s safe to say that if

you’re someone who listens to this episode you care about liberty especially individual liberty there’s

also a good chance you’re tired of waiting around for political change tired of being duped by political

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and open your free account today last year a lot of people were saying that

this reaction to the Corona virus was mostly to make sure

that Trump didn’t get elected and I said “Sure that’s that could be a good

byproduct of it but it was worldwide and this was happening all over the

world.” How do you explain that how do you explain that there were so many that

there were so few countries and so few you know Commonwealths that just didn’t

buy into this and it just seemed to be like I mean let let’s go into conspiracy

theory land here it would look like an orchestrated global effort and then you look at what’s happening in I mean let’s

talk about this Australia have you been following what’s going on in Australia yeah loosely what do you think that I

mean it’s it’s in people are getting beaten in the streets by the police for

bringing their masks down the military are actually patrolling the streets there what the hell’s What is that i

don’t know i think it shows that um these so-called open societies that we always thought were like the West was

more of a liberal tolerant open society um I mean as much of a critic as I’ve

always been of the United States and the Constitution for our worship of it um

there’s something about having our written Constitution and our written bill of rights which which was at least somewhat inspired by some lip service

liberal ideas um has put down some kind of limits at least paper limits on what

the state does here whereas in in the in the other parts of the Commonwealth they never had that right so Australia

probably Canada the UK uh they’re really it shows that it shows the state has no

limits um even the ones that that that you think of as the kinder gentler states i mean I

I don’t know if you watched The Handmaid’s Tale on um I guess whatever

network it’s on but and they show you know the US has become a theocracy a fascist theocracy neo-Christian

theocracy and Canada is this kinder gentler place and when all the all the um all the people that the refugees from

the US go there they get welfare payments to set up their house and to pay their food and it’s so kind and

gentle but Jesus Christ it doesn’t look like that now does it the Commonwealth countries they’re not they’re not so kind in and gentle are they i mean the

the teeth of the state are shiny and sharp even if they hide it sometimes

yeah i just that blatant propaganda for Canada when you have Trudeau who’s just

basically he would have Canada turn into Australia overnight if I’m assuming if

it wasn’t for the fact that the United States is right here next to it that may

be one one thing that’s restraining it in some way um or the fact that that’s a

country full of insane rednecks i don’t think people realize that once you get outside of like the eastern parts of can

of Canada you’re you’re dealing with some serious rednecks that will um that

are pretty tough yeah i I you you kind of wonder if things like this might slowly increase

the odds of secession movements like in the US i mean you know you think of New York as like a as a um as a blue state

blue state right but lots of it is rural and very red um the same with even

California right and um and even Texas has red red blue parts outside of the uh

of the of of the red of the red areas well Dallas and Fort Worth are red and

blue right on top of each other yeah even even Houston where I live uh people think it’s conservative it’s not it’s

it’s um I the impression I get from living here is it’s a bunch of uh um

it’s a bunch of Democrats and a bunch of limousine neoliberal neo-Republican types so it’s it’s pretty it’s pretty

blue here too god I wish they wouldn’t have picked you know that was from the that was from the Gulf War wasn’t it when CNN uh picked those colors oh no

that was from the that was from the Gore Bush election in 2000 when they chose red and blue to represent Bush and Gore

and it’s always confusing to me because I always associate red with commies which would be the Democrats i’ve always

got to flip it in my mind to remember which one’s which yeah but going back to

secession now um yeah I when you talked about secession in January of 2020 it

was basically theoretical yeah texas talks about it all the time even

California brings it up and everything i’m pretty well convinced that we are

going to see it in my lifetime that there is going to be some there something is going to break off in my

lifetime and when one thing breaks off it is just going to it it’ll be dominoes falling well you know what’s heartened

me a little bit is that the federalism we have in the US has has not decayed in

the sense that there’s still a recognition by the feds that the states or the kind of the the fundamental units

here um I mean even Biden has been a little bit frustrated by the some of the

actions of some of the governors he doesn’t like but that’s a recognition on his part that he can’t really control

what they do so and he may like he may butt heads with Florida if his OSHA

mandate conflicts with the state law in Florida what’s going to happen i mean that’s to me it’s a good I mean I’m I

feel sorry for the businessman being caught in the middle but um it still is a is a display of of federalism so every

state maintains its identity and there are some states that have this like even Texas has this sort of this secession

idea built into its makeup um so I think it’s still possible here by the way this

is one reason I’ve always despised these centralist libertarians like the KO types uh like Tim Sander is a good

example that they’ve argued that oh the United States is one country and every

state’s not sovereign they want the federal government to be central supreme

power it’s just straight out of it’s objectivism yeah the objectivists at least they at least admit that they’re

rationalists and um and some of them if you if you ask them like well your opposition to anarchy wouldn’t that

imply that anarchy on the international plane is also bad and we shouldn’t have 200 states we should have one and most

of them if they’re honest they’ll say they’ll they’ll they’ll sort of reluctantly admit yes ideally we want

one world government but in today’s world that wouldn’t be practical it’s like yeah well it’s never practical

dumbass i mean I ran said the moral is the

practical so if you’re admitting something’s not practical maybe it’s immoral and in principle too dumb ass

well one of the places that myself and Scott Horton um diverge is I’m not a

libertarian universalist at all i mean I’m I’m a Hoppian covenant community guy

who just believes that that’s the only way that’s the only way that we’re going to achieve any kind of

libertarianish kind of society is to break it down to as small as possible

and exclude people from it and I mean it’s just and what better example than

the last 18 months i mean you do not want to share a polity with these people i mean it is just insane well not only

that if you imagine a world of 10,000 Likenstein then everyone’s got the power of exit right you can go anywhere you

can you can find your you can find your groove you know you can find your jam you can find your community that you like um it seems to be that would be the

least objectionable even to the left but they have this totalitarian control impulse you know they don’t want people

to be able to escape um their controls but the other reason I think that this hoppian enclave uh this private law

society idea uh makes sense is because it seems to be it’s inevitable

if you are the anarchist like we are which is you don’t believe in the state but you’re not for chaos so one common

criticism of us anarchists is that we don’t believe in law now that’s a false

unfair charge because it’s made by people who either honestly or disingenuously maintain that um law is

not possible without the state i mean they don’t think education or communication or roads or money is

possible without the state so they’re they’re dishonest or they’re stupid but but the point is they equate law with

the state so if we say we’re against the state they think we’re for chaos um um

and so when we anarchists say that there there can’t be law then

we’re kind of taking their side we’re agreeing with them that there can’t be law without the state but we we private

property anarchists believe there would be law but what that means is all the institutions that the state has monopolized

um they would have a private analog not all of them like the drug war would not

but um but education would and roads would right and uh money would so all

these things could and law there would be law and order it just would be done privately so

we libertarians have to believe that there would be private hierarchies and natural authority structures and figures

that would have to emerge to fill the role that the state has co-opted and monopolized we would do a better job of

it it would be more decentralized more focused more tailored more measured more tolerant more reasonable you know

everything about it would be better but it would exist and that would necessarily result in diverse

communities of different types it would necessarily result in that because you you everyone’s not the same and to

imagine a world of bland homogeneity is just absurd you’re going to have clusters of different types of things in

the world if you let people associate freely just like in in the US today with somewhat freedom we have segreg

voluntary segregation you have different you have Chinatown you know you have black neighborhoods you have Hispanic

areas it’s not 100% uniform but you do tend to have people likes tend to

associate with likes uh not just racially or ethnically but by different things class you know religion um

whatever so I think you’re going to have to expect some kind of coagulation some kind of lumpiness in the way things

spread out on the surface of the earth if you allow freedom so you would have

different enclaves and they would have their own rules and customs and traditions yeah i was on Tim P last week

and I had made the comment you know he introduced me as a libertarian podcaster so I was and you might not agree with

this but I was saying that you know when I think of the left I think of chaos when I think of the right I think of

order and I’m thinking of ho I’m thinking about hapa hapa talks

about the right being more about hierarchy and hierarchy brings about order and when you’re destroying

hierarchy is just freaking chaos and I what’s funny is I looked at the comments I had my phone and I’m looking at the

comments and someone said I I thought all libertarians wanted chaos right so that’s what they actually think people

who are non libertarians think that they’re all about chaos yeah and those people are they’re more sincere they just are confused they just don’t know

but uh yeah I actually don’t think I disagree with you on that i used so I used to think when I was younger I used

to think that um the simplistic like the first the first version was simplistic

the Nolan chart idea that uh oh the left believes in personal liberties and the right believes in economic liberties and

we just believe in both that’s not exactly right right um the way I then

the way I thought of it after that was well the left is worse on personal and

economic liberties and the right is bad on both but they’re not as bad as a left and we’re better on both okay and that’s

a better approximation but over time I started thinking well left just means

soft socialist and the right means nothing because conservativism is not

coherent it just means conser and if you think about the Republican party it’s this weird um elomeration of three

groups that have nothing in common you have the neocons and you have the moral majority Christians

and you have the chamber of commerce types which are the best ones i believe the kind of small business free market

types chamber of Commerce types the moral majority types are just kind of loose theocrats and I don’t know why

they’re free market at all and then you have the neocons who are basically wararmongers right and establishment um

crush the anti-fascist sorry so um but now I kind of agree with when Hapa put

it in one of his articles he said the essential definition or the essential characteristics of them is that the left

is inherently egalitarian which is anti-natural anti- nature

because it it’s anti- hierarchy and anti- authority and the right is realistic in other words they re they

recognize that in an in a private society you’re going to have natural hierarchies and natural differences

arise so to that extent I would agree with him and I would take the side of the right so if you define it that way

which I think is loosely analogous to your chaos and order perspective because

if you have egalitarianism you’re going to have chaos because you’re obliterating natural distinctions and

you’re trying to force people into a mold that is not natural you’re going to have chaos um and the right recognizes

order um so I think that the this this this conservative view of respecting

being realistic about the differences between people and allowing natural authority figures and hierarchies to

emerge that would replace and supplant what the state has co-opted is the only way to be and you have to temper that

with some kind of libertarian principles right to not have a theocracy or fascism

or something but um I guess that’s how I see the right and left now is as is um

as ealitarian which is unnatural and destructive versus being realistic about human

nature i’ve really been talking about hapa a lot lately and especially what must be

done we did a I did a live stream with a couple guys where we looked at the last

15 minutes of what must be done the speech that he did for the Mis Institute back in 96 and yes um he was talking

about one of the things that he talked about was on the local level you’re going to need leadership and that there

are natural elites and I think that that makes you and then he has that I guess booklet natural elites intellectuals in

the state yeah and um that’s where you the the ancap the people who are living

in an capistan in their head who can’t who wouldn’t even consider using the what must be done thing because oh it’s

politics and I’m never going to get involved with politics and anyway and that’d be fine if they would just shut

up but but a lot of them are also a lot of them

are opposed to this idea of natural elites they have this sort of and you

see this among the left libertarians right who hate the idea of employment you hate the idea of bossing people

around and um you know they almost give some proof to the criticism that we’re

for chaos because yeah if you oppose every private

elite or authority figure or institution or hierarchy that would emerge in the

vacuum of the state to fill the role that the state has been filling then you’re going to have chaos so there’s

some there’s some um you know there’s some ground to the criticism of us being in favor of chaos if you listen to the

way we’re depicted by the left libertarians who are opposed to this natural elites idea yeah i mean and when

it comes down to how do you define it natural elites are the people in your community that instinctively if there

was a problem people would go to and ask for their advice well well not only that

you have natural elites in different dimensions of society i mean if you have a medical problem you go to someone

who’s known to be a good healer a doctor you know if you have a legal problem you go to a lawyer if you have if you want

to build a building you go to an architect and they have reputations within their communities but they have specialties that’s what the division of

labor and the specialization of labor is about so you have different people that

acquire a reputation and people go to them because they are more they have a higher quality rating basically and so

for dispute resolution the same thing would happen i mean this is the idea of how kings emerged right the kings weren’t like the they weren’t dictators

or desperates they were just the people that were the wise men in town that everyone respected their judgment

authority and if you if you need if two people have a dispute and they don’t want to have to fight about it and have

eternal warfare uh between their clans or between themselves you want to have some neutral third party settle your

dispute so who would you pick someone who’s an idiot i mean a literal idiot or

or a stranger or someone who’s trusted and known and wise and fair and has a reputation to guard i mean it’s just

obvious how these things would emerge in society you were saying that you were hoping that a year down the line that

things would start slowly going back to normal whatever that’s going to look like i mean we can’t get back to normal

um we’re not going to get back to what it was in 2020 January of 2020 there’s going to be remnants of this that are

left over and especially in areas I think you know the federalism that we’ve been talking about you’re New York’s

going to try and keep this going California Illinois those places are going to try and keep this going um as

long as possible do you see it getting getting worse before it gets better

I I I don’t I think that it’s it’s uh it hasn’t improved as quickly as I hoped

because of I think mainly because of Delta this Delta surge which has either happened or given them an excuse to

extend their controls um but I think there’s a growing

and the vaccine in a sense has helped because the more people that get it maybe they have an excuse not to be so

paranoid anymore right i don’t know it’s probably not as much of a panacea as they think but at least it gives them um

it gives them cover to to kind of stop being as as as paranoid as they were before uh so maybe they can stop wearing

masks with they can they can save face a little bit you know by showing their face

um so I don’t know i I guess I’m maybe optimistic but I am hopeful that it will get slowly better over the next uh over

the next six months i’m going let you go man because I know you’re um getting prepared for a long long journey so um

thank you thanks for coming on and um you want to What’s your website again where you steancella.com and my IP

stuff’s at c4sif.org or and uh yeah I thought we were going to talk about your post libertarianism which I’ve been

hearing about which I haven’t heard elaborated yet so may maybe one day we can talk about that oh yeah yeah that’d be cool um also when it comes to

subjects that make people absolutely insane especially libertarians abortion

yep um borders and IP

there’s Yeah i mean it’s just and I I’ve we’ve done we’ve done a couple episodes

on IP we actually did an episode on China and IP and um yeah nothing makes

nothing people as insane as that i mean of those three IP is the easiest because the answer is so clear once you see it

abortion is always going to be an intractable issue and um although I

think that there’s a pretty easy libertarian political approach to it and borders is also very difficult and it

probably will be difficult until the state is radically minimized we have decentralization as long as we have a big democratic welfare state uh the

immigration issue will always be a problem because if you have open borders you’ll have problems and if you don’t have open borders you have problems so

there’s really no solution as long as you have the state which is why the anarchist approach is the only one

really for the intractable problem intractable problems thanks a lot man safe travels thanks

Pete i want to thank you for tuning in to the Freeman Beyond the Wall podcast i

want to thank Stefon for coming on the show that’s it we’ll be back in a few days with another episode take care and

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