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IP discussion with an engineer

On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 2:06 PM, [Matthew] wrote:

 

Hi Stephan,
I just read your article on Intellectual Property and Libertarianism at mises.org.  I’m an engineer and so am well aware of the farce we call the patent system.  I also see the absurdity of US copyrights.
The are some things I don’t yet fully understand, even after reading Mises for a year or so.  How can we get rid of copyrights and patents while still allowing there to be an incentive to create ingenious works?

 

I’d say: stop worrying about it. There will always be innovation. The concern of the patent proponents is there won’t be “enough.” How do they know we don’t have enough without IP? How do they know we have enough even with patents? If you worry about designing policy to make sure there is–enough? the “optimal amount”?–of innovation, why not go further–why not make the infringement penalty more severe? Why not impose jail time, or capital punishment? why not award prizes? see Re: Patents and Utilitarian Thinking Redux: Stiglitz on using Prizes to Stimulate Innovation, Mises Blog (Dec. 28, 2006) and Patents and Utilitarian Thinking Redux: Stiglitz on using Prizes to Stimulate Innovation (Sept. 19, 2006); .
I say: just get the state out. Stop worring about optimizing what people do. Protect property rights, let the free market operate. Why worry about having the optimal amount of doctors, toothpaste providers, airlines, an innovation? Is that the task of government? of the use of force? of political philosophy? No: It’s to recommend policy that protects individual rights. Forget the central planning.

 

I understand your metaphor with the marble statue, but much IP created today is absolutely disconnected from physical entities.  Software, and the designs of hardware, movies and so on come to mind.  Why would anyone one or any company spend money to make a movie if they have no hope of selling it, since it can be copied and redistributed worldwide for free.  Why would any engineer bother creating software if someone is just going to copy and distribute it around the world?

 

Why is there open source software? Open Office? Gmail? Why are people writing on blogs for free? And why did i write my articles. No one paid me.

Juts look at it simply: in the absence of IP people will still maek movies and music and write books and design products and write software. Surely you can’t say it will go to zero. So there will be SOME. So your only concern is there is not ENOUGH. This is the concern of a central planning socialst. Just forget about it.

 

Existing hardware engineering companies could still make money with new ideas, (but no patents), the same way they do now, by being first to market.

 

and by delivering products and services and by shwoing they have the best ideas and skillz and people.

 

However small companies and inventors would have a hard time, as soon as a big fish saw that they were profitable, they could steal the idea and run with it.  What then would be the motivation of small fish?

 

I just don’t get this concern. I used ot wonder why people made staples. I buy a box for $3 and it sits in a drawer for 19 years. How can they make a profit on that? But they do. If they didn’t, the price would rise till they could. Or, it wouldn’t if it was not worth it to make it.

 

I don’t see how software makers, movie and music makers could survive at all without copyrights, now matter how fast they were to market the capital required to reproduce and redistribute what they make is nearly zero.
People feel violated if their bodily person is violated or their property is stolen, feeling of violation is a natural human emotion under such circumstances.  Having your idea stolen feels no different.

 

I disagree. It is different. And, feelings are not the main barometer. Further, calling it “stealing” assumes there is property in ideas. So that’s a question-begging way of putting it.

 

And, people who steal ideas for their own are generally regarded as liars, or somewhat deviant, depending on the circumstances.

 

I don’t agree. What most people call “idea theft” is not dishonest at all. It’s called “learning.”

 

I think that there is some ownership of ideas which naturally decays with time.  I guess I base this on how people feel about certain actions, I can’t offer a lofty philosophical argument for this.

 

J. Neil Schulman does, in his article on logorights, which I think is fatally flawed. See On J. Neil Schulman’s Logorights.

 

I believe 17 years is too much time, and whatever mickey gets is way too much time for ownership of IP.  I also believe the scope of what people claim in patents is too broad, such as Monsanto patenting living organisms.  But I think 5 years for copyright and patent would be fair and useful.

 

But you have no reason for this.

 

I don’t see practically or philosophically how IP could be thrown out.

 

The burden of proof is not on us, it’s on IP advocates.
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Why Rand Liked IP

J D Steelman <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 4:22 PM
Subject: Libertarian IP
To: [email protected]

It is obvious why Rand favored IP laws – to protect her writings.  Since I first began my libertarian experience in 1967 I have evolved from the limited government lib to no government lib. It is clear to me now that laws are merely scams by the ruling eltites to circumvent the functioning of free markets and free individuals.  The free private market is the best and most efficient system for satisfying goods and services demanded by consumers.  Government and its imposition of laws & regulations are designed to give (at the point of a gun) one person or class a benefit at the expense of another person or class which benefit would not otherwise exist in a private free market.

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“Intellectual Property and Libertarianism,” Mises Daily

My article Intellectual Property and Libertarianism was published today in Mises Daily; a previous version, without endnotes, was published in Liberty. The article is based in part on a speech at Mises University 2009 (July 30, 2009; audio; video) and also on my What Libertarianism Is, which contains references not present in the Liberty paper (as does The Case Against IP: A Concise Guide).

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Rand on IP, Owning “Values”, and “Rearrangement Rights”

see “Rand on IP, Owning “Values”, and ‘Rearrangement Rights’,”

 

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Adolf Reinach’s “The Apriori Foundations of the Civil Law”

reinach picAn English translation of Adolf Reinach’s “Adolf Reinach: The Apriori Foundations of the Civil Law” (1913) was included in a special edition of the journal Aletheia in 1983. I’ve scanned in my copy since it is breaking apart (it is unfortunately adorned with my underlining and notes). The scan is here [un-annotated scan sent to me by Barry Smith is here], and includes:

  • John F. Crosby: A Brief Biography of Reinach ix
  • Reinach as a Philosophical Personality: Edmund Husserl xi, Dietrich von Hildebrand xv, Edith Stein xxvii, Hedwig Conrad-Martius xxx
  • Adolf Reinach: The Apriori Foundations of the Civil Law 1
  • John F. Crosby: Reinach’s Discovery of the Social Acts 143
  • Discussion: 195
  • Josef Seifert: Is Reinach’s “Apriorische Rechtslehre” More Important for Positive Law than Reinach Himself Thinks? 197

Reinach’s paper “On The Concept of Causality in the Criminal Law” was published earlier this year in Libertarian Papers (Vol. 1 (2009), Art. No. 35). As noted there, Adolf Reinach (1883–1917) was a German phenomenologist and legal theorist. For further information on Reinach, see Karl Schumann & Barry Smith, “Adolf Reinach: An Intellectual Biography,” in K. Mulligan, ed., Speech Act and Sachverhalt: Reinach and the Foundations of Realist Phenomenology (Dordrecht/Boston/Lancaster: Nijhoff, 1987), pp. 1–27; and “Papers on Adolf Reinach.” In addition, Reinach’s thought was examined in a symposium on “Austrian Law and Economics: The Contributions of Reinach and Rothbard” held at the Ludwig von Mises Institute on March 29–30, 2001, papers resulting from which were published in Vol. 7, no. 4 (Winter 2004) of the Quarterly Journal of Austrian Economics.

[Mises blog cross-post]

Update: See also Adolf Reinach, J. N. Mohanty, “Kant’s Interpretation of Hume’s Problem,” The Southwestern Journal of Philosophy, Vol. 7, No. 2, HUME ISSUE (SUMMER, 1976), pp. 161-188 (twitter: “Reinach wrote an essay that explains Hume as coherent with rationalism in the same way Mises was, a non-Kantian (i.e. non-transcendental) rationalist.”)

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On Blaming the Victim: Callahan on The Battle of the Toms

Well this has been interesting, but taking a cue from Pete’s hortations, I’m going to take a pause from arguing about what libertarianism is or isn’t and get back to being busy DOING libertarianism. (Say: I might title my next book that. 🙂

Chow for now!

🙂

Posted by: Stephan Kinsella | November 03, 2009 at 05:44 PM [continue reading…]

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If You Believe in IP, How Do You Teach Others?

Powerful piece by Jeff Tucker: If You Believe in IP, How Do You Teach Others?

November 16, 2009 7:43 AM by Mises Daily (Archive)

The MIT model is the model of the ancient world and every university environment ever since, and it is the only way to deal with a digital society in which every thought becomes globalized upon utterance. FULL ARTICLE by Jeffrey Tucker

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Intel v. AMD: More patent and antitrust waste

Intel Will Pay $1.25 Billion to Settle Disputes With Rival reports: “Ending the computer industry’s most bitter legal war, the chip maker Intel agreed on Thursday to pay a rival, Advanced Micro Devices, $1.25 billion to settle antitrust and patent disputes.”

$1.25 billion in wealth transferred, and untold hundreds of millions spent on litigation, patent acquisition, losses due to strategic adjustments in response to antitrust and patent law … Yet another example of how the central state’s artificial legislative patent and antitrust schemes do nothing but destroy and waste wealth. Well, not only that–they also enrich certain classes who parasitically benefit from the system, e.g. patent lawyers, litigators, and large companies.

(See also my post Nokia’s infringement suit against Apple illustrates need to scrap US patent system.)

Update: 

Chip giant Intel agreed to pay $1.25 billion in a settlement with AMD, a step that shores up its smaller rival and may defuse the mounting antitrust scrutiny Intel faces. – Digits: AMD Lawyer Hoped For A Big Day In Court – Text: Statement from Intel, AMD on settlement – News Hub: Tech Giants Make Peace

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704576204574531412169533976.html?mod=djemTECH

So, for a measly billion, Intel gets to basically defend itself from antitrust scrutiny. Better than paying a fine or divesting or whatever. Plus, it gets to vindicate its massive patent portfolio, which was surely used as a bargaining chip to lower the settlement amount. And AMD gets a billion, gets to stay in the game, and also gets to vindicate its IP spending and department.

Plus, both sides remain relatively free of new entrants and upstart competitors, who cannot build up patent arsenals big enough to let them enter into these negotiating games. Everybody wins, right?

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“Patent Professionals” and Patent Policy

In Survey of the Disruptive Impact of a First-to-File Switch, and on his facebook page, patent attorney and law professor Dennis Crouch asks “patent professionals” to “Please Respond to my Survey on Switching US Law to a First-to-File System.”

I’m trying to figure out why we should care what patent attorneys, of all people, think about patent policy. Why is there an assumption that their opinions on patent policy are especially relevant? If anything, patent professional are biased because of built-in incentives to favor maintaining a patent system. They are not objective at all. And training in engineering and law school in no way provides one with any special knowledge of policy or ethics issues. By analogy, do we care what an IRS agent thinks the tax rates should be?

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Latest notable terms from this week’s Slate Culture Gabfest and Slate Political Gabfest (feel free to email me suggestions or leave them in the comments to the main page): [continue reading…]

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“Intellectual Property and Libertarianism,” Liberty magazine

My article “Intellectual Property and Libertarianism” [Liberty‘s online version; local PDF] was published last month in Liberty magazine (December 2009 issue). This article is based in part on a speech at Mises University 2009 (July 30, 2009; audio; video, speech podcast on The Lew Rockwell Show, #131, as The Intellectual Property Racket (Aug. 19, 2009)) and also on my What Libertarianism Is, which contains references not present in the Liberty paper (as does The Case Against IP: A Concise Guide). A version with endnotes appears here in Mises Daily.

Update: See also Yeager and Other Letters Re Liberty article “Intellectual Property and Libertarianism”, and KOL013 | “Intellectual Property and Libertarianism,” Mises University 2009.

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A lot of blogposts have been flying around the libertarian blogosphere about the fall of the Berlin Wall twenty years ago. Those looking for truly thoughtful commentary should read the article by Hans-Hermann Hoppe, “De-Socialization in a United Germany,” Review of Austrian Economics, Vol. 5, No. 2 (1991). Hoppe applies his unparalleled abilities at libertarian and Austrian economic analysis, informed by his own experience in West Germany (including his own family’s victimization at the hands of East German communism), to provide a fantastic overview of recent German history, an Austrian-informed explanation of exactly how the East-West Germany “experiment” illustrates economic theory, a criticism of the disastrous way re-unification was to be implemented along with an explanation of the preferred alternative:

While the course has largely been set and German reunification has proceeded through the incorporation of East Germany into the West German welfare state, an alternative existed which would have spared the Germans the economic frustrations inevitably associated with the current planned course of reunification.

At the Walll, August 1990

At the Walll, August 1990

Unfortunately, this radical alternative–the uncompromising privatization of East Germany, the adoption of a private-property constitution, and reunification through a policy of complete, unilateral free trade–has so far found practically no audience. Almost all alternatives proposed are variations of the same welfare-statist theme: either somewhat more drastic (i.e., more redistributionist), advocated mostly by Eastern economic “experts,” or somewhat more moderate, as advanced mostly by the economics establishment of West Germany.

Hoppe calls for the “complete abolition of socialism and the establishment of a pure private-property society–an anarchy of private-property owners, regulated exclusively by private-property law [, which] would be the quickest economic recovery of East Germany.”

(See also Hoppe’s discussion of East and West Germany in his A Theory of Capitalism and Socialism (1989), pp. 33-37.)

Update: from my comment to Ralph Raico’s post about his experience at Checkpoint Charlie (Ralph Raico, “My Experience at Checkpoint Charlie,” (08/15/2011); my comment)):

Wonderful recollection. I went thru Checkpoint Charlie just after the fall of the wall, in 1990–as shown in some pictures in my post Hoppe on East vs. West Germany and the Fall of the Wall, I and two buddies chipped off pieces of the wall. We went a few miles down from checkpoint charlie where the wall was still up, but softer, and used large rocks to knock pieces off. We carried them in our backpacks till we returned home and gave some of them out as gifts. Like idiots we hopped over the gate into East Germany, and when an East German patrol came by we scurried and hid behind an abandoned gate tower–three moron law students looking for trouble. [Update: I spoke recently (Aug. 2012) to my two friends—Paul Comeaux and Tony Tramontana—about this, and neither one remembers the patrol coming by, so my memory may be failing me.]

Eventually we went into East Berlin and stayed the night in some hotel that used to be nice. I remember they could not take credit card since they were not set up for that. The city was grimy and depressing. It looked like a war zone.

Checkpoint Charlie 1990

Checkpoint Charlie 1990

[Mises blog cross-post]

Tony Tramontana, Prairieville, Mar 18 2025

Archived comments:

 

The Wall, Berlin

Berlin, The Wall Summer 1990 — my piece of the Wall (my dad had this mounted for us)

Some more pix from that trip and related:

Chipping off a piece of the wall, 1990

Chipping off a piece of the wall, 1990

 

 

 

 

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