This is lecture 4 (of 6) of my 2011 Mises Academy course “Libertarian Controversies.” This talk covered “Misconceptions and Controversies,” such as positive vs. negative obligations, contracts vs. promises, incitement and causation, and other issues. Slides for this lecture are appended below.
This is lecture 3 (of 6) of my 2011 Mises Academy course “Libertarian Controversies.” This talk covered “Even More Misconceptions,” such as state vs. government, “limited” government, Hoppe on monarchy vs. democracy, federalism, restitution and punishment, positive obligations, and other issues. Slides for this lecture are appended below.
This is lecture 2 (of 6) of my 2011 Mises Academy course “Libertarian Controversies.” This talk covered more common libertarian misconceptions such as PDA jurisdiction, Big-L vs. small-l libertarianism and other misused terms, non-aggression “axiom” or principle, and other issues. Slides for this lecture are appended below.
This is lecture 1 (of 6) of my 2011 Mises Academy course “Libertarian Controversies.” This lecture contained an overview of basic austro-libertarian concepts and started discussing various libertarian “misconceptions,” regarding the left-right spectrum, coercion and force vs. aggression, the jurisdiction of private defense agencies, and related issues. I’ll release the remaining lectures here in the podcast feed in upcoming days.
This course followed on my speech “Correcting some Common Libertarian Misconceptions,” from the 2011 Annual Meeting of the Property and Freedom Society (May 27-29, 2011; see KOL 044 | “Correcting some Common Libertarian Misconceptions” (PFS 2011)). That talk engendered a good deal of discussion and interest, but in the time allotted for a single speech I was able to cover only a small number of the topics I had assembled over the years. In the 6 week Mises Academy course, “Libertarian Controversies” (Sept. 19-Oct. 23, 2011), I covered these and related topics in greater depth. The course was planned for 5 weeks initially, but I added a sixth “bonus” lecture at student request. The course is discussed in my Mises Daily article “Libertarian Controversies” (Aug. 25, 2011); here are the audio and slides for all six lectures. The “suggested readings” for this lecture are appended below.
This is my speech “Correcting Some Common Libertarian Misconceptions,” delivered on May 28, 2011, at the Annual Meeting of the Property and Freedom Society. The video is here, and streamed below; here is the powerpoint presentation. Re-presented as PFP076.
This is a discussion about IP with a fellow Austro-anarchist libertarian, Alexander Baker, who initially accepted the anti-IP argument I and others have made, but who has since moved to a type of pro-IP position. We had a few email discussions in recent months about this, but I was unable to persuade him that his approach was misguided. We decided to have a (friendly) discussion about it.
Baker calls his theory “intellectual space” and has a new blog devoted to this “libertarian theory of intangible property”; he sketches his position in his post Intro to Intellectual Space. We had a very interesting, civil discussion, which is rare for discussions with IP advocates (see, e.g., KOL 038 | Debate with Robert Wenzel on Intellectual Property). Baker was honest and forthright, willing to admit what he is not yet sure about; he admitted his own bias for IP given that his career (as a musical composer) depends in part on IP protection. He admitted the burden of proof is on IP advocates, and I believe he would not disagree with me that many advocates over the years have offered weak arguments.
I don’t agree with Baker, in the end. His argument seems to me to be based on analogies: an idea or recipe can play a role in production “similar” to how scarce means can, and thus can be exploited, owned, etc. However, he came across to me as sincere and searching for truth, which I can appreciate. Listen and judge for yourself.
Update: Here is a previous discussion on this topic between Baker and Stefan Molyneux:
I was a guest recently on the Renegade Variety Hour (discussing intellectual property and other issues), with hosts Carlos Morales and Taryn Harris (recorded April 5, 2013, podcast April 10, 2013). I met them at the recent Liberty in the Pines conference and was happy to talk with them.
Blogger Robert Wenzel and I had a “debate” earlier today about IP, to be jointly put up on my podcast and his Economic Policy Journal “podcast” (it’s on his site at Kinsella Crushed!! and Initial Report on Debate, and mentioned ahead of time several times as linked below). Bob is an Austrian libertarian (I think) blogger but has been criticizing me and Jeff Tucker’s anti-IP views for a few years now (see links below), so we decided to discuss it. 1
GROK SUMMARY SHOWNOTES: In this episode of the Kinsella on Liberty Podcast (KOL038), recorded on April 1, 2013, libertarian patent attorney Stephan Kinsella engages in a contentious two-hour debate with pro-IP libertarian blogger Robert Wenzel on the legitimacy of intellectual property (IP), focusing on patents and copyrights, hosted on Wenzel’s Economic Policy Journal and Kinsella’s podcast (0:00:00-10:00). Kinsella argues that IP violates property rights by granting state-enforced monopolies over non-scarce ideas, using Austrian economics to emphasize that property rights apply only to scarce, rivalrous resources, and systematically refutes Wenzel’s circular arguments, as noted in his post-debate commentary on stephankinsella.com. Wenzel, defending IP, relies on metaphors like “stealing” information and claims ownership of a “Drudge formula,” which Kinsella dismantles as service contracts, not property transfers, while Wenzel’s EPJ posts assert he “crushed” Kinsella, focusing on Kinsella’s alleged insults and anger (10:01-1:00:00).
The debate intensifies as Wenzel diverts to side issues, such as challenging Kinsella’s historical claims about Rothbard’s anti-IP stance, and avoids defining IP, prompting Kinsella to highlight Wenzel’s evasiveness and confusion between rivalry and competition, as detailed in Kinsella’s commentary (1:00:01-2:00:00). Wenzel’s EPJ posts claim Kinsella was “afraid” of losing and overly emotional, while Kinsella notes Wenzel’s own profanity and frustration, maintaining focus on IP’s economic harms, like stifling innovation, and its incompatibility with libertarian principles (2:00:01-2:23:07). The Q&A reveals Wenzel’s reliance on emotional appeals over substance, with Kinsella concluding that IP is an unjust state intervention, directing listeners to c4sif.org. Wenzel’s initial EPJ report and archived claim of victory contrast with Kinsella’s analysis, which underscores Wenzel’s failure to provide a coherent IP defense, making this episode a rigorous critique of IP’s flaws.
GROK DETAILED SHOWNOTES BELOW
Youtube:
Backup copy:
The discussion went on for over 2 hours. It went about as I expected: he tried to dwell on side points, he refused to—was unable to—even attempt to define IP much less provide a coherent justification for it. He repeatedly engaged in question-begging: calling using information you learn from others “stealing,” which presupposes that there is some owned thing that is stolen. He started out with several bizarre, off-point attacks: for example challenging my claim in my 2001 piece Against Intellectual Property that Rothbard was one of the original libertarian opponents of IP. The entire criticism by Wenzel is bizarre because whether or not I am right in listing Rothbard as an opponent of patent and copyright has nothing to do with whether IP is justified. Further, later in the paper I have an extensive section dealing with Rothbard’s attempt to come up with some kind of contractual scheme that emulated some aspects of IP, which he confusingly calls “copyright.” Some libertarians, like Wenzel, apparently think Rothbard did support copyright (though Wenzel repeatedly equivocates on whether he is talking about state copyright or Rothbard’s private “copyright” scheme), or patent, or something in between, and others say he didn’t. For example David Gordon writing on LewRockwell.com, in Sam Konkin and Libertarian Theory, observes:
… anti-IP views were very much in the air thirty years ago: Wendy McElroy stands out especially in my mind as a forceful and effective critic of IP. Even earlier, Rothbard had in Man, Economy, and State (1962) favored the replacement of the state system of patents and copyrights with contractual arrangements, freely negotiated. (If one moves outside modern libertarianism, Benjamin Tucker rejected IP well over a century ago as Wendy McElroy has documented in an outstanding article.
Rothbard did not take this “contractual copyright” idea very far and indeed I believe it contradicts other aspects of his thought such as his contract theory (ch. 19 of Ethics of Liberty), his opposition to reputation rights/defamation law (ch. 16), and his explicit opposition to patents (ch. 16, also Man, Economy, and State and Power and Market, Scholars Edition, pp. liv, 745-54, 1133-38, 1181-86).
But anyway, what does it matter? It’s a bizarre appeal to authority. I am quite sure that Rothbard would have agreed with us anti-IP libertarians if he had had more time to sort it out; as I noted, it’s implied in all the structure of his political theory. This is why Hoppe easily saw this by integrating Rothbardian and Misesian political economic ideas (Hoppe on Intellectual Property). But so what if he would not have? Then he would have been wrong. And so what if I had been wrong in listing Rothbard as an early libertarian opponent of IP (though he arguably was; although as the paper explained later on, his position was not fully fleshed out and/or had ambiguities). How does this prove IP is legitimate? It does not, but Wenzel has no good argument for IP which is why he for over two hours refuses my repeated requests that he provide one—after all, it’s supposed to be a debate about IP. In fact in my opening statement I explained that the burden of proof is on the pro-IP libertarian: to provide a coherent definition of and justification for IP, especially given its statist origins and statist usage today (Where does IP Rank Among the Worst State Laws?). [continue reading…]
Note: I failed to record the audio at my end until 1:07:10, but my audio quality was better. So I spliced in the better second half from my recording. So starting at 1:07:10 you can hear better audio quality at my end, and no worse at Wenzel’s. [↩]
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