[From Mises blog, Dec. 7, 2007]
I received an impressive inquiry from a high school senior: “I am contacting you to ask if I can interview you for my senior project paper, which is a persuasive paper about why copyrights are invalid and impractical. I will have between 5-10 questions regarding intellectual property for you to answer.” I said sure; and she sent on her questions, which were:
1. What would you say is the most powerful argument against copyrights and patents?
2. What would you respond with to someone who argues that resources do not have to be finite or scarce in order to be allocated as property?
3. How would you respond to Lysander Spooner’s argument that property is wealth that is owned, and wealth includes ideas since they can be manifested into tangible wealth?
4. What about the argument that people own their minds, so they own the mental products?
5. Some anti-IP people believe in a right to first sell. Would you say that the original creators should have a right to sell the creation first? Why or why not?
6. What would you respond to someone who claims that if there were copies all around, the original inventor wouldn’t get as much profit as he should have?
My replies are below.
Question 1. What would you say is the most powerful argument against copyrights and patents?
As I elaborate in In Defense of Napster and Against the Second Homesteading Rule and Against Intellectual Property (both available here), humans need to use scarce or “rivalrous” resources — for example, tangible things like land or food or clothing — to survive. The nature of these things is that only one person can use or control the resource. Thus, there is a possibility of conflict over the use of these things. For people to live peacefully and productively in the world, we need to be able to find ways to use scarce resources without fighting over them. This means that each scarce good–each thing that might be the subject of conflict–is assigned one unique owner, someone with the exclusive right to control that resource. The rules for determining who is the owner have to be objective, fair, and just, in order to be generally accepted and serve the function of reducing conflict. It is for this reason that ownership is thus assigned to the person with the best claim to the thing in question–the most objective “link” to it. This is the libertarian-Lockean idea of “first use”–whoever first possesses or uses a thing–that is, establishes objective property “borders” with respect to the resource–is the owner. Any other rule is non-objective or arbitrary. For example, if the first user did not have the best claim to the resource, then whatever rule you use to assign property rights, property is not secure because some latecomer could just take it from the current owner. So any property assignment rule at all presupposes the first-user idea–the idea that an earlier user, ceteris paribus, has a better claim than any other user. Which implies the first user — the homesteader — has the best claim of all. Any other rule in effect violates the notion that latecomers have an inferior claim to earlier users. For example, a thief who steals property is in effect a latecomer. And mere verbal decree is not sufficient either, for one or two reasons: first, because (with respect to unowned resources), it’s not an objective use of the thing; it does not establish any visible link; and any number of people could make such a claim, in contradistinction to first possession, which can only be done by one person, and which is objective and visible; and second, because (with respect to already owned resources) this amounts to theft, or a latecomer ethic.
Now, given this understanding, we can see that any just and peaceful and prosperous society requires the assignment of ownership rights in scarce resources in accordance with the libertarian homesteading or “first use” principle. Now ideas — creative works protected by copyright or inventive designs or recipes or processes of patent law — are not scarce resources. Any number of people can have a copy of a song; or can use the same method or design, with their own bodies and property. To assign rights in such things–called “ideal objects”–means setting up enforceable claims in these intangible things–but force is a tangible, real thing that can only be applied to other real (scarce) things. In other words, because ideas are scarce, assigning rights in ideas necessarily is accomplished by assigning ownership rights in scarce resources. So, for example, the holder of a copyright to a novel has a partial ownership right over the bodies and tangible property of everyone else in the jurisdiction, because he can stop them from using their bodies or property in a certain way. The owner of the patent for a mousetrap can stop you from using your own body and wood and metal to make a mousetrap having a similar design to his patented design. But as we have seen above, recognizing such rights contradicts the only just and objective property assignment rule, since it overrides the ownership rights already established in already-owned things. I homestead property, and own it; then someone else acquires some rights to control my property merely by a decree of the state, in effect, merely by their thinking of a way to use their own property, which is not “first use” of the resources they now claim ownership of.
So, in short, the problem with patent and copyright is that it amounts to theft of rights to scarce resources.
Question 2. What would you respond with to someone who argues that resources do not have to be finite or scarce in order to be allocated as property?
Assigning rights to non-scarce things necessarily infringes on rights to scarce things, since IP rights are enforced with force, real force, in the real world, against real things. For example, the copyright holder can force the “infringer” to pay money to him; or can get an injunction forcing him to stop using his body and (scarce) property in a certain way. Assigning rights to non-scarce things acts much like inflation of the money supply does: the more you do it, the more you dilute and reduce the value of real property (money).
Question 3. How would you respond to Lysander Spooner’s argument that property is wealth that is owned, and wealth includes ideas since they can be manifested into tangible wealth?
Wealth is too nebulous a term to be used here and is unnecessary. It appears to mean value; but as Hoppe and Rothbard show, value is not ownable or owned. The owner of property has no property right in the object’s value, since its value lies in how others’ appraise it. (Hoppe argues this in his TSC, as I note in my Against IP article, at text at note 79.) See also Rothbard’s explanation for why there are no rights to one’s reputation–because a reputation is what others believe about you, and you don’t own their minds or opinions. (I think this is in Ethics of Liberty.)
Question 4. What about the argument that people own their minds, so they own the mental products?
This line of reasoning is based on the confusing notion that creation is an independent source of property rights. This error is similar to the confused idea that we own things we mix our labor with because we “own” our labor. We own — have the right to control — various scarce resources, such as our bodies and other scarce resources we homestead or acquire from previous homesteaders. We do not own “labor”; labor is just an action, an activity of the body. To be sure, when one first uses unowned property, and thereby homesteads it, he is engaging in a type of “labor”; but we do not need to rely on the confusing metaphor that we “own” our labor. By working to emborder or possess an unowned resource, one thereby establishes a visible link with the property, thus establishing a better claim than any latecomer, i.e. ownership. This chain of reasoning does not imply or rest on the idea that we “own” our labor.
As for creation, it is often maintained that one can acquire ownership of things by either finding (homesteading), contract (acquiring it from a previous owner), or by creating the thing. But this is confused: creation is not an independent source of ownership. In fact, a bit of reflection shows that it is neither necessary nor sufficient. If you own a resource and re-shape it into some new, more useful, more valuable configuration (say, you “create” a mousetrap using your wood and metal; or you “create” a statue by carving up your hunk of marble), then you own the resulting “creation” simply because you were already the owner of the material that constitutes it. So it is not necessary to think of creation as a “source” of ownership rights. Likewise, if you carve a statue into someone else’s property, then you do not own the resulting statue; rather, the owner of the marble is entitled to have his marble back, and perhaps damages for trespass. So creation is not sufficient for ownership either.
In fact, the only legitimate ways of acquiring title to a given scarce resource is to either homestead it from its unowned state, or to contractually acquire it from someone who already owns it and who can trace his title back to an original act of homesteading. This fully exhausts all ways of coming to own scarce things. This is because matter cannot be created by man, but only rearranged.
Now let me note one other thing. Rothbard explains in Ethics of Liberty why there is not really an independent right to free speech; there are only property rights. There is no “right” to free speech that gives you the right to speak on others’ property–you must have the consent of the owner. And if you own property, you can do whatever you want on it, including speak–not because you have a “right to free speech” but because you can do whatever you want with your own property so long as you do not invade others’ property rights.
So back to your question: we do not own the mental products of our mind for several reasons. First, owning one’s body, just as owning property gives you in effect a (derivative) right to speak on it, allows you to use it to do useful things, such as come up with ideas, or even sell your services, or labor. There is no need to engage in the confusing fiction or metaphor that you “own” your labor, or you “own” the “products” of your mind. Second, “products of the mind” is far too vague of a concept. It is so broad that if property rights were granted in them, they would swamp and override all real rights in real things. And finally, if the products of your mind are scarce, you presumably own them because they result from reworking material you already owned (if not, as in the stolen marble example, you do not own it at all, but someone else does). And if they are not scarce, they are not the subject of property, since granting property in them is impossible, and can only be accomplished by eroding property rights in others’ things.
Question 5. Some anti-IP people believe in a right to first sell. Would you say that the original creators should have a right to sell the creation first? Why or why not?
I believe you may be referring to the doctrine of common law copyright. As a practical matter, if you have an idea or manuscript, you can use this to leverage payment to reveal it. But if you are foolish enough to let the information become public, it is too late to do this. As Benjamin Tucker noted: “You want your invention to yourself? Then keep it to yourself.” (see on this Wendy McElroy, Copyright and Patent in Liberty).
Question 6. What would you respond to someone who claims that if there were copies all around, the original inventor wouldn’t get as much profit as he should have?
Austrian economics teaches us that values are subjective, and that the only way to determine an objective price is on the market. See on this Rothbard’s Utility and Welfare Economics, e.g. The only way to know how much profit someone “should” make is to see what people are willing to pay them for. Part of the market is the need to incur costs of exclusion. If you don’t put a lock on your business, people will steal it. If drive in movie theaters didn’t incur the cost of putting little speakers for each car, then people would free ride by watching it from outside. To decide whether a given endeavor is worthwhile, one must take all costs into account, including costs of exclusion. The more creative find ways to exclude that have a low enough cost and that exclude a sufficient number of free riders so that the business can be profitable. For those entrepreneurial plans that have too high a cost, they should not be engaged in. So we see people finding ways to profit from their ideas, given the free rider problem–so rock bands give away their music for free (it plays on the radio, e.g.) so they develop fans who will pay to see them play live in concert (but even here, there are costs of exclusion–the ticket selling and enforcement mechanism, say). Or television shows are broadcast for free and paid for by advertisting. And so on.
[Mises blog post; Against Monopoly cross-post]
filc
I must be missing something. I cannot get the source URL for the video. Can you provide a link please, I’d like to share this.
Published: October 10, 2009 6:31 PM
filc
On second thought I change my mind. I was going to send this to a left friend of mine but I don’t need to give him more ridiculous ammo. Though I would say there are some valuable points in this video.
Published: October 10, 2009 7:48 PM
Andrew_M_Garland
How can I have a right to bandwith? Is someone distributing bandwidth equally to everyone on earth?
Maybe Moglen means that I have a right to use a gun to threaten whomever I wish until they give me a certain amount of bandwidth. No, he couldn’t mean that.
Published: October 10, 2009 7:54 PM
Silas Barta
You’re … seriously surprised that someone else sees the IP and EM spectrum rights are closely related, and sink or swim together? You know, after I explained it to you nine or ten times?
Published: October 10, 2009 7:58 PM
newson
to stephan kinsella:
that fact that silas barta is fixated on the ip/em spectrum nexus should be a warning to you. wrong way, go back!
why on earth should i have a monopoly right to interference-free use of my transmitter to reach clients? If a neighbour uses his ham-radio on the same wavelength, does he cause me physical harm? no, he damages my business relationship with my listeners.
when the lone cobbler in town finds boots-are-us have opened in the mall, he is mightily pissed off. but has any aggression occurred to his person? or just his erstwhile cozy business model? there is no right to clients.
besides, this em scarcity thing seems contentious, even on a technical level. what about beaming signal via focused laser beam from one point to another? office-to-office streaming. this may not interfere with anyone else using the same frequency, unless they’re sharing the exact same corridor (and how many pencil-wide beams could you actually fit in a city?)
everybody is permitted to talk (audible transmission) at the same time by the law. good manners and etiquette dictate behaviour in group situations. no em laws needed, thank you very much. when my neighbour’s transmitter fries my gonads through his powerful transmission-tower (physical damage), i’ll see him in court to answer a plain-vanilla tort charge.
Published: October 10, 2009 9:41 PM
Silas Barta
Thanks, newson, exactly what I was hoping a Kinsella supporter would say.
I think my work here is done.
Published: October 11, 2009 12:17 AM
Stephan Kinsella
Silas, I’m glad to see that you are consistent and oppose both EM spectrum rights and IP rights.
Oh, wait–
Published: October 11, 2009 12:47 AM
newson
imagine i move to malibu beach (many years ago.) i buy a block some way back from the shoreline (mindful of spooky global climate change) and enjoy magnificent ocean views.
along come mickey rourke and kim basinger and build mansions in the beach strip in front of my house.
now i am really pissed off! the visible em spectrum that i was receiving from the breakers and the sand is now blocked by em transmission that i don’t want, mickey’s roof-tiles and kim’s air-con unit.
why didn’t i buy rights to the visible em spectrum before building? how could i have been so stupid? what folly! but i sure deserve compensation for the despoilment of my visible em reception. get my attorney on the phone, now!
Published: October 11, 2009 1:34 AM
Ribald
I find the IP debate interesting in many respects, such as the question of what form intellectual property takes in the free market.
For instance, a patent for “cars” is currently rejected because the idea is “too broad”, but is it any less worthy of protection just because it is broad? Should algorithms be patent-worthy? Living organisms? Is there a better way of determining who invented what than a government-created patent system? Is someone’s medical history or credit card number IP? How different does an invention have to be before it qualifies as distinct from someone else’s patent? Should it be a crime to illicitly copy and distribute IP, to profit from its use/sale, or both? Should IP exist only in the abstract, as something which we are willing to pay a price to protect, but which it is legal to acquire and share (free speech), regardless of who “owns” it, or should it exist in the same manner of property rights that cover tangible goods?
Do free market principles tell us the answers to these questions, or do we have to accept a mutual consensus?
Published: October 11, 2009 5:39 AM
Martin OB
In my opinion, the EM spectrum should be regulated as a form of acceptable noise levels, just like with sound.
Everyone should have the right to emit whatever EM frequencies he likes in his own property, and to receive a low enough EM radiation level from his neighbors. How low is enough? That’s analogous to the question of sonic noise levels. They’ll have to agree on some acceptable level.
Then, if you want to set up a radio station, you ask your neighbors for permission to “pollute” their property with your EM radiation. If your radio station is good, they may let you for free. Otherwise you may have to pay.
This should be the default procedure. Private fenced communities could, of course, have more conventional internal EM regulations.
So, I’m very close to newson’s last paragraph (EM is like talking), except I don’t see why you should have to wait until your neighbor “fries your gonads”.
If you have some very sensitive equipment and your neighbor sends a cute little EMP, even if it doesn’t harm your body, you arguably have a right to complain about the damage to your property. And what if he doesn’t actually destroy your equipment, but he renders it useless because of constant, massive EM noise? You have spent money in your equipment and now you can’t use it because of your EM-noisy neighbor sending his EM noise into your property.
On the other hand, it may be the case that you build an *extremely* sensitive piece of equipment with no EM insulation, and then you neighbor buys an electric lawnmower which damages your equipment. It may be reasonable for you to complain about that, but it’s also reasonable for him to claim he has a right to use an electric lawnmower in his property. So, tort law may be a solution, but only if jurisprudence or implicit agreement is already present about what EM noise levels are reasonable.
This is NOT the same as what happens with the lone cobbler, because in this case, as newson says, no property of his is damaged. His clients are not his property.
Notice, by the way, that it’s not the radio station owner who has a right to complain about interference; it’s the radio listeners. Why? because the radio station is not prevented from emitting its EM radiation; it’s the radio receivers who are prevented from using it. Of course, the radio station owner could buy a radio receiver and complain as a listener of himself, but he couldn’t seek reparations for his lost audience.
I think it’s pretty clear this is nothing like IP. It’s just a tricky aspect of (physical) property rights.
Published: October 11, 2009 6:24 PM
newson
i concur with martin ob, whose reply is more nuanced and articulated than mine.
Published: October 11, 2009 11:57 PM
NateS
As an electrical engineer and having taken many classes on electromagnetic communication, in my opinion the EM spectrum can transmit a nearly unlimited amount of information, far beyond any problems imposed in our current world.
If some jerk rings a gong, then in the future I will be more precise about the timing of my gongs. I will ring twice, I will ring in the note of E, I have a nearly infinite number of permutations for him to try and preempt. The interferer will always have to imitate a previous signal and thus will lack the ability to interpret the packet of information explaining when future gong will ring, how many times it will ring, at what tone, etc. etc.
Then you have the problem of determining the actual economic viability of interfering with someone else’s signal. The sophistication needed to beat even the most rudimentary encryption efforts would far outstrip any usefulness in a market.
The example of the EM spectrum seems like a worse than acceptable justification for IP.
Published: October 12, 2009 12:00 AM
Stephan Kinsella
NateS: “As an electrical engineer and having taken many classes on electromagnetic communication, in my opinion the EM spectrum can transmit a nearly unlimited amount of information, far beyond any problems imposed in our current world.”
As an electrical engineer also, I disagree. Of course the EM spectrum and bandwidth is finite. In any event, “nearly unlimited” is not unlimited, meaning there is scarcity.
but this is not about the EM spectrum. That is an independent problem. The IP issue is easy. EM spectrum rights are not so clear. I lean to the view that these rights are justified, as explained in “Why Airwaves (Electromagnetic Spectra) Are (Arguably) Property.”
Published: October 12, 2009 1:18 AM
NateS
What would stop me from homesteading the entire spectra?
You are essentially building a model for which someone could actually impede and block all development in the EM spectrum by claiming they were there first.
Easements are a result of imperfectly applied property rights, and public property, a weak justification for creating arbitrary property rights over things that are being given away (energy signals).
Published: October 12, 2009 1:28 AM
R.P. McCosker
“[B]oth conservative and libertarian IP advocates, and leftist IP opponents, all accept the idea that IP is a type of property right. The leftists oppose IP for this reason–because they are opposed to private property rights; and the libertarians favor IP because they are proponets of property rights.”
Interesting parallel here to anarchism: Some favor it as a way to abolish private property, and others favor it as a way to uphold property. (Which reminds me: Anarchism can only function within some kind of social framework. Surely that framework must be considered a political system of sorts.)
From a propertarian-libertarian perspective, IP is ethically wrong because, by definition, operates by confiscating certain uses of extant tangible property. And as time passes more and more uses of one’s extant property are seized by the coercive agency of government and redistributed to IP “holders.” Anti-IP collectivists don’t get that IP doesn’t create private property, but rather redistributes it, when what they really want to do is abolish it altogether.
Published: October 12, 2009 12:08 PM
Michael A. Clem
What would stop me from homesteading the entire spectra?
Well, for one thing, it would take a whole heck of a lot of transmission power to transmit over the entire spectra, unless you’re specifically limiting it to a very short range. What’s the economic incentive for doing that? How would it be profitable?
Published: October 12, 2009 1:39 PM
kmeisthax
I find it hilarious that we’re trying to justify property rights to emit something that violates other people’s property.
Better idea: you can emit what you want so long as no one else is harmed and complains.
If someone complains that your emissions are disabling their rightful use of their land, or them being able to hear other frequencies, they have a right to complain and you have a moral imperative to stop transmitting. Why? Because your emissions are trespassing -their- land.
If you are interfering with an active transmission of someone else’s, others are also allowed to complain about your interference, and you must attenuate your signal until it is no longer invading their land. It’s the same as dealing with regular noise pollution.
Published: October 12, 2009 4:58 PM
Martin OB
kmeisthax:
Welcome to the club. There’s at least three of us here 😀
Published: October 12, 2009 7:02 PM
Vanmind
“Anarchism can only function within some kind of social framework. Surely that framework must be considered a political system of sorts.”
I don’t think anarchic is meant to imply apolitical. Rather, I think it’s meant to imply that no pretense of rule-over-it-all is to be tolerated. Politics & disputes are still resolvable under anarchy, just in different ways that resort less to coercion by way of such rule-over-it-all pretense.
Published: October 12, 2009 9:51 PM