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Kinsella on Liberty Podcast: Episode 456.

[Update: see various biographical pieces on my publications page, including Alan D. Bergman, Adopting Liberty: The Stephan Kinsella Story (2025).]

This is my appearance on Adam Haman’s podcast and Youtube channel, Haman Nature (Haman Nature substack), episode HN 109, “Stephan Kinsella Expounds on Philosophy And The Life Well Lived” (recorded Feb. 6, 2025—just before the Tom Woods cruise). We discussed philosophy and rights; my legal and libertarian careers (see Adopting Liberty: The Stephan Kinsella Story), and so on.

Grok transcript and shownotes below.

Adam’s Shownotes:

Adam interviews patent attorney, philosopher, legal theorist and libertarian anarchist Stephan Kinsella about his life, his works, and what’s next for the great man!
00:00 – Intro.
01:21 — Does Stephan believe there is a level of technology required for “Ancapistan” to “work”.
07:42 — Adam has issues with the “is/ought” gap and asks Stephan for help on the matter.
25:42 — The life and times of Stephan Kinsella. Great stuff!
50:55 — Have questions about legal careers? Reach out to Stephan with questions!
52:02 — Outro. Thank you for watching Haman Nature!

Shownotes (Grok):

 

 

Haman Nature Episode 109: Revised Show Notes

Aired: March 24, 2025

In this episode of Haman Nature, host Adam Haman interviews libertarian theorist and patent attorney Stephan Kinsella, marking his third or fourth appearance on the show. The discussion explores Kinsella’s views on anarcho-capitalism, libertarian legal theory, philosophy, and intellectual property (IP), intertwined with biographical insights into his life, career challenges, and intellectual evolution. The episode offers a blend of deep philosophical inquiry and personal reflection, highlighting Kinsella’s contributions to libertarian thought.

Technology and Anarcho-Capitalism

[00:00]

The episode begins with a discussion on whether advanced technology is required for an anarcho-capitalist society (“Ancapistan”) to succeed. Kinsella clarifies a misinterpreted comment, stating he no longer sees liberty as dependent on mass economic literacy but on cultural absorption of libertarian values, as seen after the Soviet Union’s fall. He envisions technology reducing theft incentives in a post-scarcity world, where resources are easily replicable, making state coercion ineffective. Breakthroughs like AI or Bitcoin could accelerate this, though a free society remains possible without them, emphasizing productivity and voluntary institutions.

The “Is/Ought” Gap and Objective Rights

[07:45]

Haman raises the “is/ought” gap, referencing Kinsella’s prior podcast on objective versus subjective rights. Kinsella argues norms must be universalizable and grounded in reality, rejecting arbitrary distinctions like race or strength. Drawing on Hoppe’s transcendental argument, he explains that peaceful discourse presupposes equality and peace, forming a foundation for libertarian norms like body ownership and homesteading. These objective rights minimize conflict and enable prosperity, rooted in human nature rather than divine or forceful edicts.

Religion, Ethics, and Practical Norms

[14:00]

The talk extends to religion’s role in ethics, with Kinsella critiquing dismissals of natural rights while noting that ethical “oughts” often derive from some “is,” including God. He aligns with Peterson’s view of God as a hierarchy of values for human thriving through iterative processes, similar to libertarian principles fleshed out via common law precedents. As an atheist, Kinsella values religion for encoding practical morals but prefers it over statism, which perverts decency. He stresses that norms evolve pragmatically to foster peace, rejecting utilitarianism for principled consistency.

Kinsella’s Personal Challenges and Early Influences

[25:46]

Kinsella shares his life story, reflecting on a tough year with prostate cancer recurrence, sepsis leading to a stroke and kidney issues, his brother’s death, and surgery recovery. Now 59 and recovered, he’s prioritizing family, health, and writing, pausing libertarian travels. Growing up in rural Louisiana, he attended Catholic schools and discovered libertarianism through Ayn Rand’s The Fountainhead in 10th grade, becoming an objectivist and atheist. Early bullying experiences amplified his hatred of injustice, aligning with Rand’s anti-force ethos, while comics and philosophy shaped his worldview. He pursued electrical engineering at LSU but found it limiting, leading to law school.

Law School Education and Legal Theory Benefits

[33:42]

At Louisiana State University (LSU), a top civil law school due to Louisiana’s unique civil law system, Kinsella studied Roman and civil law alongside common law, providing a rare comparative framework. This education deepened his understanding of legal systems, which he now sees as serendipitously beneficial to his libertarian work. It enhanced his analyses of contract theory, property rights, and intellectual property, allowing him to draw on historical precedents like Roman law. Without this foundation, Kinsella believes his writing and theorizing would have been significantly less robust, as it fostered a systematic approach integrating legal history with Austrian economics and political philosophy.

Career Beginnings, Law Firm Deferment, and London Experience

[36:10]

After law school, Kinsella secured a job at a Houston oil and gas law firm in 1991, coinciding with his wife’s engineering move there. However, a legal recession—possibly tied to economic downturns or oil industry fluctuations—left firms short on work, leading some to rescind offers. His firm instead proposed deferring 10-15 incoming associates for a year, paying partial salary (one-third to half). Kinsella eagerly accepted, viewing it as an opportunity. He used the funds to spend a year in London pursuing a master’s in international business law, which he describes as a great experience that he loved. This international exposure broadened his legal perspective, aiding his later writings on global business, contract theory, and anarchy, making his career more intellectually fulfilling.

Shift to Patent Law, IP Opposition, and Future Plans

[38:00]

Kinsella switched to patent law for national mobility, initially supporting IP due to Rand but concluding by 1994 it should be abolished, as it contradicted property rights. His vocal opposition never harmed his 30-year career—spanning law firms, general counsel roles, and private practice—instead positioning him as an expert. Now retired, he focuses on writing, including Copy This Book, to critique how IP stifles innovation like AI. He invites legal career questions via stephankinsella.com or @NSKinsella on social media. Haman wraps up by encouraging support at hamannature.substack.com. Note: The transcript does not mention any accident in 1983 while working construction, so no elaboration is provided here.

 

TRANSCRIPT (From youtube; cleaned up by Grok).

Haman Nature Episode 109: Interview with Stephan Kinsella

Adam Haman interviews patent attorney, philosopher, legal theorist, and libertarian anarchist Stephan Kinsella about his life, works, and thoughts on anarcho-capitalism, legal theory, and more.

Originally aired: March 24, 2025

Intro

[00:00]

Adam Haman: Hello and welcome to Haman Nature. I’m Adam Haman, and on today’s show, I have an interview with the great libertarian theorist and patent attorney, Stephan Kinsella. I believe this is his third or fourth appearance on the show. I asked him some probing questions about anarcho-capitalism, libertarian legal theory, and philosophy. In the back half, I talk to him about his life, which is very, very interesting. So, please enjoy Haman Nature, a journey in search of a peaceful and prosperous society with human nature as a guide, led by your host, Adam Haman.

[01:00]

Adam Haman: Hello, Stephan, welcome back to Haman Nature.

Stephan Kinsella: Hey, Adam, it’s great to see you again.

Adam Haman: Today, I’d like to ask you a couple of questions about philosophy and anarchy, and then I want to hear the story of Stephan Kinsella, if you’d indulge us.

Stephan Kinsella: Sure, okay.

Does Stephan believe there is a level of technology required for “Ancapistan” to “work”?

[01:23]

Adam Haman: My partner on this show, Tyrone the Porcupine Hobo, mentioned something surprising from a conversation about you. He said he learned from you—either from something you wrote or said on a podcast—that our species won’t achieve anything close to “Ancapistan” unless we reach a high enough level of technology that we haven’t yet attained. Did he hear you correctly, or what are your thoughts on that?

Stephan Kinsella: That’s not exactly what I think, but I’ve made related comments over the years. When I was younger, I believed the only way to achieve liberty was if enough people became economically literate, like reading Economics in One Lesson. I thought intellectual activism was about spreading the word. But I no longer believe that. Handing out books to people who aren’t intellectually curious won’t achieve liberty.

[02:00]

Stephan Kinsella: Also, despite our technology, we’re still a primitive species. We figured out some things too early—came out of the trees too soon, as I’ve said. We have atomic weapons but remain superstitious in many ways. I don’t think a free society is impossible, though. A free society could happen sooner than we think, with some breakthroughs—maybe AI, post-scarcity, or Bitcoin.

[03:00]

Stephan Kinsella: What I meant by the technology comment is that liberty might be achieved if people absorb libertarian values culturally, not necessarily through education. The fall of the Soviet Union in 1991 is an example. After that, people generally recognized that central planning doesn’t produce goods as well as capitalism. They don’t deeply understand free markets, but they see that too much government planning fails.

[04:00]

Stephan Kinsella: I envision a society so wealthy due to technology that the incentive to steal diminishes. If I can make a car for a dollar, why steal yours? Property rights would still exist, but the need to violate them would decrease.

Adam Haman: Tyrone interpreted your comment as suggesting we need to be rich and isolationist enough to hit a replicator button and pop out a car, eliminating the need for a state or associations. But I pushed back, arguing that a free market society is valuable regardless of technology level, maybe even more so when we’re not rich and need to come together with the right institutions to maximize prosperity.

[05:00]

Stephan Kinsella: I may have been fantasizing about technology making us invulnerable—like having an army of robots or a force field—so we can’t be coerced by the state. If individuals had technology and wealth on par with the state, the state would become irrelevant. I wasn’t saying we wouldn’t have society, productivity, or division of labor.

Adam Haman: That’s a great point. We aim to evolve in our private lives to make the state redundant, and what better way than force fields or robot armies?

[06:00]

Stephan Kinsella: I was also making a point about the difference between descriptive and prescriptive statements—between “is” and “ought,” or between causal laws and moral laws. Physical laws, like gravity, can’t be violated. But prescriptive laws, like rights, can be disregarded because we have free will. I imagined a benevolent satellite or personal force field that makes rights violations impossible—a thought experiment.

Adam has issues with the “is/ought” gap and asks Stephan for help on the matter

[07:45]

Adam Haman: I struggle with the “is/ought” gap. In your podcast episode 444 with Alex Anarcho, he asked about objective versus subjective rights. You said that distinction is wrong but brilliantly derived objective, non-arbitrary rules based in reality that satisfy the purpose of people coming together to avoid conflicts. That aligns with the premise of my show, Haman Nature, which is about finding rules and norms appropriate for our species. How do you address this?

[08:00]

Stephan Kinsella: I don’t recall the exact exchange, but when justifying a norm with an ethical component—what people should do—you propose a rule and justify it argumentatively. The argument assumes a proto-peaceful stance: we’re sitting down, not hitting or threatening each other, willing to agree to disagree. That presupposes a meta-norm of equality, where both parties are capable of engaging in argument.

[09:00]

Stephan Kinsella: If I propose a rule like “I own everyone because I’m me,” that’s arbitrary, devolving to brute force. A rule must be universalizable, grounded in reason and the nature of things. For example, claiming superiority based on race or strength lacks relevance to rights, as rights don’t stem from skin color or physical power.

[10:00]

Stephan Kinsella: Natural law argues we have rights because of our nature, but it struggles with the “is/ought” gap. Hans-Hermann Hoppe’s transcendental argument sidesteps this by starting with oughts, pointing to a grundnorm—a base norm presupposed in any argument. Argumentation inherently assumes norms like peace, so you build political norms from there, grounded in human nature.

[11:00]

Stephan Kinsella: Objective rights are those that, according to human nature, satisfy the purpose of rights: permitting peace and resource use. This requires norms like original appropriation or homesteading.

Adam Haman: People often scoff at natural rights arguments, saying you can’t derive an ought from an is. Yet, they believe in ethical truths, often pointing to an “is”—like God as the ultimate source. How do you respond?

[12:00]

Stephan Kinsella: Even God is just another “is.” People assume life’s purpose must come from God or the state, but that’s just God’s values, not yours. What if God is evil? When people engage in civil discourse, they presuppose common norms, like peace and prosperity. If they challenge you to prove why peace is valuable, you can ask them to prove their stance. We already agree on these goals, so the debate is about reasoning, not mathematical proof.

[13:00]

Adam Haman: I think part of the problem is smuggling in mathematical language. It’s about arguments and reasons, not proofs.

Stephan Kinsella: Exactly. There’s also hostility toward natural law due to its religious associations, like Robert Anton Wilson’s critique of Catholic prohibitions. But natural rights reasoning can be grounded in reality without being silly. Hoppe’s approach sidesteps the “is/ought” gap by focusing on shared norms in discourse.

[14:00]

Adam Haman: People who reject morality as derivable from nature often hide arbitrary edicts based on force, claiming it’s just a game of power. Milton Friedman, for example, argued for tolerance due to ignorance of true morals, implying force is justified if we know the “right” way to live. What’s your take?

Stephan Kinsella: Friedman was wrong. You can know a good way to live—like a productive, peaceful life—without using force to impose it. Libertarians use force only against aggression, with a broad conception of the good life.

[15:00]

Adam Haman: Jordan Peterson recently described God as “the hierarchy of values that allow humans to thrive in an iterative interpersonal process over time.” That sounds like how we should think about ethics, morals, and norms in Ancapistan.

Stephan Kinsella: That aligns with libertarian principles, like the non-aggression principle, which applies to body ownership. Other principles include homesteading and contract. These are abstract, so disputes are resolved by arbitrators, creating precedents that flesh out the law iteratively, accounting for human nature.

[16:00]

Stephan Kinsella: Religion, as a primitive philosophy, encodes practical morals to survive. It takes credit for evolved norms that allow peace and prosperity. Even as an atheist, I’m not hostile to religion because it transmits common-sense morals, unlike statism, which perverts morality.

The Life and Times of Stephan Kinsella

[25:46]

Adam Haman: Let’s take a hard left turn and talk about you. I saw a social media post where you reflected on your incredible, productive life. You’ve impacted me and many others. Can you share your story?

Stephan Kinsella: I recently worked on a memoir for my kids, which made me introspective. I’m 59 now, and last year was tough. My prostate cancer returned, leading to a biopsy, infection, sepsis, and a stroke. I ignored symptoms, thinking it was stomach flu, and my kidneys shut down. I was in the hospital for seven days but fully recovered, though I occasionally stutter. My brother also passed away, and I had prostate cancer surgery, but I’m past it now.

[26:00]

Stephan Kinsella: This year, I’m taking a break from libertarian traveling to focus on family, writing, and health until September, when I’ll attend Hoppe’s Turkey conference. I’m a retired attorney, and my avocation has been libertarian theory and writing, which is now my main focus. I have several book projects planned for retirement.

[27:00]

Stephan Kinsella: I grew up in rural Louisiana, attended private Catholic schools in Baton Rouge, and studied at LSU. I loved philosophy and science. In 10th grade, a librarian suggested The Fountainhead, which blew my mind. I became an objectivist and atheist, later an anarchist influenced by David Friedman, Rothbard, and the Tannehills.

[28:00]

Adam Haman: Our paths are similar. I didn’t think about politics until college, assumed I was a Democrat, then briefly a Republican after listening to Rush Limbaugh, until someone gave me The Fountainhead.

Stephan Kinsella: I was a registered Democrat because my parents were blue-dog Democrats, but I voted for Reagan in ’84 and libertarian ever since. I studied electrical engineering because I loved technology but found it constricting, so I went to law school after my wife encouraged me. I loved law school’s reasoning style, which suited my personality.

[29:00]

Adam Haman: Did your engineering studies influence your argumentation style?

Stephan Kinsella: Yes. Engineering, combined with my passion for legal theory, Austrian economics, and political theory, made me systematic. Studying Roman and civil law at LSU, a civil law state, also helped my libertarian analysis, especially in contract and property theory.

[30:00]

Stephan Kinsella: I was small and scrawny until 17, bullied in school, which made me hate injustice. Reading Rand reinforced my belief that initiating force is wrong, making me ripe for libertarianism.

Adam Haman: I was a comic book nerd, sensitive to injustice. It’s like we’re twins.

Stephan Kinsella: I was a comic book nerd too, but never got into D&D.

[31:00]

Stephan Kinsella: In 1991, a legal recession hit, and my Houston law firm job was deferred. They paid me a partial salary to delay starting, so I got a master’s in international business law in London, which helped my writing. I later switched to patent law to move to Philadelphia with my wife, as it’s a federal practice area.

[32:00]

Adam Haman: Studying international law seems related to theorizing about anarchy.

Stephan Kinsella: It was serendipitous. My legal education helped my intellectual pursuits. In 1992, I started writing on rights theory and questioned intellectual property (IP). Rand’s arguments for IP didn’t make sense, so I became a patent attorney to understand it better. By 1994, I concluded the patent system should be abolished.

[33:00]

Stephan Kinsella: I wrote cautiously at first, worried it might hurt my career, but it never did. Clients saw me as an expert. I only did patent prosecution and defense, avoiding enforcing patents, which would have been a moral quandary. I viewed my job as providing defensive “ammunition.” After 10 years, I became general counsel for a high-tech company, handling various legal areas, then ran my own practice from home.

[34:00]

Stephan Kinsella: In retirement, I focus on libertarian writing and conferences, giving me purpose. Unlike many retirees, I won’t fall into despair.

Adam Haman: Being vocal about IP opposition could have made you more valuable in your field.

Stephan Kinsella: It never hurt me and may have helped. My next book, Copy This Book, will be consistent with my anti-IP stance, offered free online.

[35:00]

Adam Haman: Are we close to abolishing IP, given technological challenges like AI and digital content?

Stephan Kinsella: IP is deeply entrenched due to propaganda linking it to innovation. Most people see its problems but think it’s fixable, not inherently bad. AI, hampered by copyright lawsuits, highlights issues, but people resist abolishing IP, preferring tweaks. My upcoming book will comprehensively address how IP strangles productivity.

Have Questions About Legal Careers? Reach Out to Stephan!

[50:55]

Stephan Kinsella: Some listeners might want to email me about being a lawyer or law school advice. I’ve collected advice for prospective law students on my website, stephankinsella.com, under a section like “Advice for Prospective Law Students.” I’m always open to questions via email or messaging on Twitter and Facebook at NSKinsella.

Adam Haman: We’ll link to your website and X/Twitter. Your website is stephankinsella.com, right?

Stephan Kinsella: Yes.

Outro

[52:02]

Adam Haman: Thank you so much for coming on, answering my questions, and sharing your life. What you’ve done is admirable, and more people should look up your work.

Stephan Kinsella: I appreciate it. I’ve enjoyed being an academic without the politics or low pay of academia.

Adam Haman: Thank you, Stephan, and thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Please visit hamannature.substack.com to support the show. Become a paid subscriber to get my articles and links to Stephan’s work. We’ll catch you next time on Haman Nature.

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Best 100 Libertarian Podcasts

Some outfit known as Million Podcasts has produced a list of the Best 100 Libertarian Podcasts, with Kinsella on Liberty ranking as #31, followed by the Property and Freedom Podcast.

For more meaningless rankings, see Kinsella Ranked #113 Most Influential in Law, 1990–2020.

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Kinsella Biography: Adopting Liberty

Adopting Liberty: The Stephan Kinsella Story, by Alan D. BergmanA little biography of mine was just completed: Alan D. Bergman, Adopting Liberty: The Stephan Kinsella Story (2025) (pdf; epub; Amazon). Jeff Tucker just tweeted it to his large following so I suppose I might as well blog it here. This was prepared for family and close friends; I was on the fence about posting this, for fear of appearing self-indulgent or narcissistic, but I really don’t care what people think and I figured some people might find it of interest. I know at least one guy is 🙂

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[From my Webnote series]

On why I write, why I fight, the Remnant, and the problem with libertarian activism and “waystation libertarians.”

From the Tom Woods Elite Letter, 19 August 2025, The Hans Hoppe Interview Concluded:

Woods: Are there any reasons to be hopeful or optimistic about the future that you see?

Hoppe: You know that Murray was always an optimist. But looking over the last 30 or 40 years, I don’t see any progress that we have made. I think that the people who rule us want to dumb down the people as much as possible. It is easier to rule dumb people than to rule smart, smart people. So I see my obligation more in keeping up the things of—of helping people not to forget what has already been achieved intellectually. To be a remnant until some time or whatever in which a great breakthrough will happen and a new dawn will appear.

The Irrelevance of the Impossibility of Anarcho-Libertarianism

Where are the best pracitical suggestions along those lines – if any of you know and are willing to share?

My personal view is that in the long run the only that that can work is economic literacy. [My older view. See now: Where I’ve Changed My Mind] Thus we need to educate people; and one way to do it is to support the Mises Institute, and to keep spreading a consistent, principled message of liberty. We can keep learning, both to improve ourselves and to improve our ability to persuade. And by improving ourselves we help present “one improved unit” to society, thus helping to win over people to our other views by the power of attraction.

I would recommend not deluding oneself that we can “win” once and for all; or that winning is all that matters. That way lies the perils of self-delusion, compromise, despair, disengagement, and activism (see my The Trouble with Libertarian Activism). [continue reading…]

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Tariffs and Legal Uncertainty

[From my Webnote series]

Regarding various new or increased or changed tariffs being proposed by Trump: of course free trade is good and the US should unilaterally abolish tariffs. 1 (I seem to recall other arguments for unilateral free trade—perhaps by Mises, Rothbard, Hazlitt, Friedman—but cannot find them; if anyone recalls any of these please notify me.)

The uncertainty faced by businesses and actors in the US as a result of these changes is simply one consequence of the state having the very power to legislate. [continue reading…]

  1. On Trump’s recent tariffs, see Gigi Foster et al., Has Team Trump Blinked?. On unilateral free trade, see Ron Paul, “Free Trade and Protectionism,” in Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr., ed., The Free Market Reader (“Even if other countries maintain tariffs or subsidies, we would be helped, not hurt, by unilaterally ending ours.”); Laurence M. Vance, Why Libertarians Loathe Tariffs; Louis Rouanet, The Case for Unilateral Free Trade; Patrick Barron Unilateral Free Trade; Ryan McMaken, We Need Unilateral Free Trade with Post-Brexit Britain; Ryan McMaken, It’s Time for Unilateral Free Trade with Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and the UK; Louis Rouanet, Britain Should Embrace Unilateral Free Trade Right Now; Patrick Barron, Two Common Objections to Unilateral Free Trade. But see Jeffrey Tucker, “Does the Trade Deficit Matter?“; idem, The Discrediting of Free Trade. []
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Concurrent Review and Judicial Supremacy

[From my Webnote series]

As noted in this Grok conversation, the US Supreme Court assumed the power to review legislation for constitutionality in Marbury vs. Madison—the power of judicial review. In this case, the Court was asked to issue a writ to place Marbury on a Court. The Court admitted he should be placed here but that the Judiciary Act of 1789, which seemed to give the Supreme Court original jurisdiction to issue such writs, was unconstitutional since it unconstitutionally expanded the Court’s original jurisdiction beyond what the Constitution specified. In other words, the Court appeared to decline a power but was only able to decline this power by assuming the power to review federal laws for constitutionality and declare them unconstitutional if found wanting.

We take this power of judicial review for granted now, but it was not so clear initially, and not all countries permit their courts to review legislation for constitutionality. However, this power quickly morphed into judicial supremacy—idea that only the judicial branch, in particular the Supreme Court, has the right, power, and obligation to pronounce legislation as unconstitutional; that what the Court says, goes: if the Court says a statute is constitutional, it is; if it says it’s not, it’s not. It’s up to the Court to decide this; not the other two branches.

But as I note in Judicial Activism and the Presumption of Unconstitutionality (draft, 2005), the theory of concurrent review makes more sense.:

Second, I agree with Jefferson’s theory of “concurrent review,” whereby each branch of the federal government (executive, legislative, judicial) has an equal right to determine the constitutionality of (federal) government action. Meaning the Supreme Court and the President can (and should) refuse to endorse or enforce a law it believes to be unconstitutional; Congressmen should refuse to vote for laws they believe to be unconstitutional, and so on. This is in contrast with the now-dominant doctrine of judicial supremacy, the idea that the Supreme Court is the sole and final arbiter of the Constitution and constitutionality. (On concurrent review, see David N. Mayer, The Constitutional Thought of Thomas Jefferson (University Press of Virginia, 1995), 131, 259, 263, 269-72; William J. Quirk & R. Randall Bridwell, Judicial Dictatorship, (Transaction Pub., 1995), xiv, 10-11, 13.)

But what this means is that the federal courts can “overturn” a federal law that they believe is unconstitutional by simply refusing to enforce it. This is because they are an intricate part of the very machinery of the federal government. If they refuse to go along with an unconstitutional law, it is essentially nullified. The same is true of the Presidency and the Congress–they can refuse as well.

In addition to concurrent review, which relates to the equal and independent obligation of each of the three branches of the federal government to refuse to enforce (or enact) an unconstitutional law, under federalist principles there is also vertical separation of powers in which the States also have a constitutional right to refuse to permit unconstitutional federal laws to be enforced in their territory (nullification), and/or to secede; the only remedy that the US Federal Government, or other States, has against a state that will not comply with federal law or even with the Constitution is to eject that State from the Union, much like a voluntary club or organization (a country club, NATO, the UN, the EU, and so on) and eject a member for not paying dues or not abiding by the organization’s rules.

See also this Grok conversation (excerpt):

The Jeffersonian Lens: Concurrent Review vs. Judicial Supremacy

To understand Trump’s move, consider the Jeffersonian theory of concurrent review, which holds that all three branches of government—executive, legislative, and judicial—share an equal obligation to uphold the Constitution. This contrasts with the notion of judicial supremacy, cemented by Marbury, where the Supreme Court positioned itself as the final arbiter of constitutional meaning. Thomas Jefferson and others warned against this, arguing that no branch should dominate the others in interpreting the Constitution. As legal scholars like David N. Mayer and William J. Quirk have noted, concurrent review empowers the executive to resist unconstitutional laws or delegations, even absent a court ruling.

Trump’s pushback against agency rulemaking aligns with this vision. If Congress has unconstitutionally delegated its legislative authority to agencies, the executive branch—under Trump’s leadership—has a duty to refuse to enforce or enable such overreach. This isn’t a power grab; it’s a reclamation of constitutional boundaries, leveraging the post-Chevron landscape where courts are now more likely to strike down agency actions lacking clear statutory backing.

Update: I would disagree with Richard Epstein too. See the transcript excerpts from Epstein on Roman Law:

John Yoo (3:42): As usual, Charlie, I agree with you about 75% of the way. The 25% is the fun part to talk about. And I’m so glad that you are willing to volunteer yourself as a second target at which Richard has to shoot, because as we keep moving, it’s a target-rich environment for him, but he can’t concentrate on more than one target at a time. So, you know, first I agree with you. In a way, it’s a technical issue of federal courts law. How far does the power of a court run in issuing a remedy? And I find that kind of boring. I think the answer is actually quite simple, which is that the Constitution says federal courts decide cases and controversies, and the cases or controversies are just the people who appear before you in the courtroom. And so that’s how far the judge’s power goes, is to the people who appear. But as you said though, it contains much more important structural issues about the Constitution, and of course it has the most immediate political effect of letting, of unleashing President Trump’s agenda from these nationwide injunctions and preventing any single district judge from stalling the federal government in its tracks. Although, as you said, Charlie, this means that the Supreme Court is going to have to intervene faster and earlier in cases like the birthright citizenship case or a lot of President Trump’s executive orders. But the really big structural issue, I think, is one that’s raised most sharply by Abraham Lincoln and Dred Scott. I don’t want to overclaim here, but remember that Abraham Lincoln was faced with this problem of a Supreme Court that believed in its own supremacy and thought that it should issue a decision, Dred Scott, that settled the rights of all freed or escaped slaves throughout the country. And remember Lincoln said, because, right, Lincoln’s a member, the leader of the Republican Party. Lincoln’s, the Republican Party is founded out of opposition to Dred Scott and rises to prominence and wins the 1860 election because it’s opposed to Dred Scott’s holding, which is that slavery cannot be stopped by Congress and the president or even the freed states. And Lincoln said this. He said, I will obey the last line of Dred Scott, which means Dred Scott himself has to be handed over back to his original owner. And then Lincoln says, “I have no obligation under the Constitution to obey that opinion.” And he says, “It’s an opinion of the Supreme Court, the logic of the Supreme Court, and apply to every other case in the country. All those other slave owners can sue by the millions to grab back freed slaves, but I’m not going to go out and find them and voluntarily hand them over.” That’s essentially the same position, I think, that President Trump and President Biden and all the other past presidents are taking. I will obey the order of the district judge, but as an independent branch of government with the right to interpret the Constitution, too, I don’t have to bend the knee to the Supreme Court’s interpretation everywhere else. And I think that’s the deeper structural decision that the Supreme Court made here in this Cassa case. But surely, before we go to Richard, surely the Supreme Court said that it has the capacity to issue nationwide injunctions. It does, but I don’t know whether a president doesn’t also have the authority to take. Now, Lincoln also said that you should only do this when the Supreme Court’s really wrong on an issue of major importance like slavery. And Lincoln also said, in general, I will obey the Supreme Court nationwide, because I think that’s their job and they might be better at it than me. But he also said we would be giving up our right to self-government if we let the Supreme Court decide finally for the whole country on the Constitution’s meaning.

Richard Epstein (7:39): Interesting. So Richard, how much of that do you agree with? Well, I’m trying to catch my breath, but go back from Dred Scott 100 years later to Brown v. Board of Education, and all of a sudden now the Court’s the good guy on segregation, not the bad guy. And the great question was whether or not you would say about Brown v. Board, it only applied to the parties that were there and that every other southern state was free to do what it wanted until they themselves were directly sued. And what we did is we had exactly the opposite result in a case called Cooper v. Aaron, which says when the Supreme Court talks, it’s going to be a form, not of judicial parity, which was what John was pushing, but rather a form of judicial supremacy, which was the way in which this thing started to work out, and I think, in effect, talking about a nationwide injunction is not the form you want in order to deal with that debate. I think that it is also the case that most of the people in this country have accepted the Cooper v. Aaron solution was done for about 1958 or so. And that that would be today the law of the land. Well, which do I believe? Well, let me put it this way. I believe that the branch which is correct ought to have the final say. The problem is we never agree as to which that branch turns out to be. And so in this particular case, I think that the word you used, Charles, to say we don’t want to allow some random judicial court to have the power over the case was wrong. The reason it’s wrong is that you use the word random. And when people are starting to bring suits with respect to these kinds of cases, the last thing that happens is that a plaintiff who has the choice of forum is going to randomly go into the telephone book and say, “Well, I think I’ll go to the central district of Idaho for this particular case.” There are huge strategic advantages to going to one place or the other, and that means that the plaintiff is going to have a huge advantage, which means that these nationwide injunctions are going to be skewed in one form or another, and so I think what happens is that the correct rule, which is the old English rule of equity, is that when you start to issue an injunction, you bind only the parties to the particular case, and you don’t bind third parties, and they will be bound, if at all, by a doctrine of precedent, which means that the case can be used elsewhere in the American system. If you do something in the Third Circuit, that’s not going to be binding on the judges in the Fourth Circuit. So that you’re going to have, essentially, the Supreme Court to resolve them. And the problem with John’s position is that if the Court itself does not have an authority to do this, and you have splits in the circuit, and you have a congressional ace in the hole or a presidential view, what’s going to happen next? And this is another problem we have. Donald Trump, as the president of the United States, has taken the single most aggressive position on the scope of executive power that I’ve ever seen anywhere. The most recent manifestation of that had to do with the TikTok case, where he said, “Well, Congress had passed a statute which surely relates to foreign commerce. But I’m the president, and I have exclusive control over foreign affairs, and so that statute is not binding on me.” Well, that’s a complete sort of revolution from taking place, and you have this inter-mural fight, and it seems to me that the only body that can resolve it is going to be the Supreme Court. It said some very silly things in some of the earlier cases, cut back on them in some later cases, but I’m afraid I still believe, unhappily, in the doctrine of judicial supremacy. Why is it an unhappy situation? Because it turns out, no matter where you put the ultimate power, there are going to be cases where you miserably reject the result. And so what you have to do is to project over the full range of cases to see which of these doctrines is going to be least harmful. And in doing that, I think I come up with the Supreme Court for one very simple reason. We’re not in England, where parliamentary supremacy is unchallenged because you have one guy doing it. In the United States, you have a presidential system, and you have a federalism system. And if it turns out that the courts cannot resolve these problems, the inter-branch disputes that you’re going to see are going to be, to my mind, extremely dangerous. So I think that I thought the decision was right. I would want to decide it on somewhat narrower grounds. Anytime one wants to talk about 18th-century equity principles, that’s the stuff that I was raised on when I was a student doing law in England back in the 1960s. And so I’m very glad to see that they, I think, got that one right. I also think they were right not to say boo about the substantive merits of this particular case, which is going to be a titanic battle come the fall.

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Beckmann, Hammer and TickleBy the late, great Petr Beckmann. On Amazon, and online here. “A collection of subversive jokes from the Soviet Union.”

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Mises on God

[From my Webnote series]

See also:

[continue reading…]

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A Tale of Two Legal Systems: Common Law and Statutory Law

Interesting article on Mises Wire: “A Tale of Two Legal Systems: Common Law and Statutory Laws,” by Ugo Stornaiolo S.:

It was the best of the laws, it was the worst of the laws, it was built on freedom, it was built on power, it was the spontaneous order of organic social institutions, it was the deliberate order of ideology and coercion, it was a stream of jurisprudence guiding us to justice, it was a tangle of statutes pushing us to restriction.

In short, law, either jurisprudence or legislation, can only be understood by comparison, and adapting the introduction of A Tale of Two Cities, we see two systems, common and civil law, and gaps in freedom between them.

Read more>>

He quotes my article “Legislation and Law in a Free Society.” See also the longer version, “Legislation and the Discovery of Law in a Free Society,” in Legal Foundations of a Free Society (Houston, Texas: Papinian Press, 2023); and related comments from Hoppe, e.g. at n.152 of this chapter.

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“All that is not permitted is forbidden”

[From my Webnote series]

Related

I recently had conversation with some fellow libertarians about how to interpret the governing rules of a given organization, and whether members of the group who receive information submitted to them are free to release this information publicly. I pointed out that the organization’s Bylaws don’t say we cannot release this information, to which someone else said it doesn’t say we can, either. I responded that the general rule is that we don’t live by permission; all that is not forbidden is permitted. In response, someone argued that this reasoning sounds like the excuse the state uses, for example when the US Government argues that its power is basically plenary, despite the enumerated powers structure of the Constitution and the Tenth Amendment, because of the interstate commerce clause in effect granting it broad legislative powers—an interpretation we libertarians usually criticize and reject. [continue reading…]

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Related:

Note: Some videos are now available, Professor Moreteau’s Youtube channel, including the keynote, below. See also the July 2025 issue of the Center for Civil Law Studies newsletter.

***

I’m attending what looks to be a fascinating legal conference next week, “The Louisiana Civil Code of 1825: Content, Influences and Languages; Past and Future,” LSU Law Center, March 20–21, 2025. 1 Somewhat to my surprise, I’m looking forward to it. Let me splain. (Note: I realize this post may come across as narcissistic or self-absorbed to some; I don’t care; in this case, it’s not for you. Some people are interested in this, others not. And one purpose of my blogging like this is to create posts that in effect can serve as searchable notes or “footnotes” for later use. 2 So avert thine eyes if you don’t like it…) [continue reading…]

  1. Steve Sanoski, “LSU Law hosting international legal conference to celebrate the Bicentennial of Louisiana Civil Code of 1825 on March 20-21,” LSU Law (March 11, 2025); program. []
  2. Blog Posts as Footnotes–Webnotes; Grok conversation. []
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Petr Beckmann’s The Structure of Language

I just came across some correspondence with Bryan Garner from 1993, who is by now a well known expert on legal writing, style, and related matters. (His books include his first book, A Dictionary of Modern Legal Usage, and many others, such as Garner’s Modern English Usage, Black’s Law Dictionary, The Elements of Legal Style, etc.) I met Bryan when he conducted a legal writing seminar for new lawyers in my firm, Jackson Walker, in 1992, shortly after he founded is firm Lawprose. I corresponded with him a bit, in part about my upcoming article “A Civil Law to Common Law Dictionary,” La. L. Rev. 54 (1994), which I later turned into a book, Louisiana Civil Law Dictionary (2011).

When we met, I believe we discussed how there is redundancy in language, e.g., how you write on a check “$100” and “One hundred and no/100 dollars.” Some criticize this, but there is a reason for this redundancy. In my letter I noted: [continue reading…]

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