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Kinsella on Liberty Podcast, Episode 162.

Interview on IP and libertarianism by Fabrizio Sitzia, LibertariaNation.org (Italy) (April 15, 2012; recorded Feb. 23, 2012)

I was interviewed Feb. 23, 2012, by Fabrizio Sitzia of the Italian libertarian group LibertariaNation.org. It was posted on YouTube. We discussed intellectual property and related issues such as SOPA, plagiarism, IP-by-contract, and other libertarian issues such as prospects for liberty in the future; the importance of technology, the Internet, and globalism; Ron Paul and electoral politics; and libertarian sentiments and receptiveness among today’s young people. (See also Italian Libertarian IP Debate.)

More info at the LibertariaNation post Intervista a Stephan Kinsella (English translation from Google translate).

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Rothbard on Leonard Read and the Origins of “Libertarianism”

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In a previous post I observed that modern libertarianism originated with the thought of Rand, Rothbard, Friedman, Hazlitt, and Read in the 1960s and 1970s (and that the term “libertarian” can perhaps be traced back to 1802). 1 I’ve also argued that the key figure of modern libertarianism, ultimately, was Murray Rothbard, “Mr. Libertarian.” 2 I still think this is right, but it’s interesting to note that in Rothbard’s journal Libertarian Forum, this distinction was bestowed upon Leonard Read in his obituary, in Vol. 17.5-6, May-June 1983, Rothbard (presumably it was Rothbard, as the editor), wrote: 3

More than any other single person, Leonard was the founder of the modern libertarian movement. … 4

In addition, more than anyone else Read coined the name “libertarian” for the current movement. Before that, we had no single name, awkwardly going back and forth between “individualist” and “true liberals”. The problem with the latter phrase is that the quasi-socialists had already succeeded in appropriating the term “liberal”, and calling ourselves “true” anything was confusing and hardly persuasive. And the term “individualist” tended to confuse political philosophy with possessing a spirit of individual autonomy. Read and a few others launched the term “libertarian” for the freedom philosophy, and it stuck—the only case I know of when we were able to appropriate a word from others. For before that, communist-anarhcists had often referred to themselves as “libertarian.” The first time when we were referred to publicly as “libertarians” was in an odious book, published in the 1950’s, by a certain Ralph Lord Roy, entitled Apostles of Discord. There was a repellent literature in those days of works written by aggressive centrists and “moderates” who pilloried all “extremists” as per se evil. Roy, a Social Gospel Protestant, wrote his book to attack both Communist and ultra-rightist “extremists” in the Protestant church. That was par for the course in those days, but lo and behold! he included a chapter called “God and the ‘Libertarians'”, spotting quasi-anarchistic extremists then centered around a libertarian publication for Protestant ministers called Faith and Freedom.  Libertarianism had arrived on the American ideological scene.

Ironically, as Rothbard goes on to note, “In later years, Leonard Read drew away from the libertarian movement which he had named and founded.”

[Update: used in 1796, apparently: See Wikipedia entry for Libertarianism:

The first recorded use of the term libertarian was in 1789, when William Belsham wrote about libertarianism in the context of metaphysics.[12][non-primary source needed] As early as 1796, libertarian came to mean an advocate or defender of liberty, in the sense of a supporter of republicanism, when the London Packet printed on 12 February the following: “Lately marched out of the Prison at Bristol, 450 of the French Libertarians”.[13] It was again used in a republican sense in 1802 in a short piece critiquing a poem by “the author of Gebir” and has since been used politically.[14][15]

The use of the term libertarian to describe a new set of political positions has been traced to the French cognate libertaire, coined in a letter French libertarian communist Joseph Déjacque wrote to mutualist Pierre-Joseph Proudhon in 1857.[16] Déjacque also used the term for his anarchist publication Le Libertaire, Journal du mouvement social (Libertarian: Journal of Social Movement) which was printed from 9 June 1858 to 4 February 1861 in New York City.[17] Sébastien Faure, another French libertarian communist, began publishing a new Le Libertaire in the mid-1890s while France’s Third Republic enacted the so-called villainous laws (lois scélérates) which banned anarchist publications in France. Libertarianism has frequently been used to refer to anarchism and libertarian socialism.[18][19][20]

In the United States, the term libertarian was popularized by the individualist anarchist Benjamin Tucker around the late 1870s and early 1880s.[21][better source needed] Libertarianism as a synonym for liberalism was popularized in May 1955 by writer Dean Russell,[citation needed] a colleague of Leonard Read and a classical liberal himself. Russell justified the choice of the term as follows:

Many of us call ourselves “liberals.” And it is true that the word “liberal” once described persons who respected the individual and feared the use of mass compulsions. But the leftists have now corrupted that once-proud term to identify themselves and their program of more government ownership of property and more controls over persons. As a result, those of us who believe in freedom must explain that when we call ourselves liberals, we mean liberals in the uncorrupted classical sense. At best, this is awkward and subject to misunderstanding. Here is a suggestion: Let those of us who love liberty trade-mark and reserve for our own use the good and honorable word “libertarian.”[22][better source needed]

Subsequently, many Americans with classical liberal beliefs began to describe themselves as libertarians. One person who popularized the term libertarian in this sense was Murray Rothbard, who began publishing libertarian works in the 1960s.[23]

In the 1970s, Robert Nozick was responsible for popularizing this usage of the term in academic and philosophical circles outside the United States,[24][25][26] especially with the publication of Anarchy, State, and Utopia (1974), a response to social liberal John Rawls‘s A Theory of Justice (1971).[27] In the book, Nozick proposed a minimal state on the grounds that it was an inevitable phenomenon which could arise without violating individual rights.[28]

References

  1.  “libertaire – traduction – Dictionnaire Français-Anglais WordReference.com”www.wordreference.com (in French). Retrieved 6 October 2025.
  2.  Wolff, Jonathan (2016). “Libertarianism”. Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy. London. doi:10.4324/9780415249126-S036-1ISBN 9780415250696.
  3.  Vossen, Bas Van Der (2017). “Libertarianism”. Oxford Research Encyclopedia of Politicsdoi:10.1093/acrefore/9780190228637.013.86ISBN 978-0-19-022863-7.
  4.  Mack, Eric (2011). Klosko, George (ed.). “Libertarianism”. The Oxford Handbook of the History of Political Philosophy673–688. doi:10.1093/oxfordhb/9780199238804.003.0041.
  5.  Boaz, David (30 January 2009). “Libertarianism”Encyclopædia BritannicaArchived from the original on 4 May 2015. Retrieved 21 February 2017[L]ibertarianism, political philosophy that takes individual liberty to be the primary political value.
  6.  “Non-Aggression Principle”Archived from the original on 14 December 2024. Retrieved 23 November 2024There are a small group of libertarians who do not accept the non- aggression axiom.
  7.  Otero Carlos-Peregrín [gl], ed. (1994). Noam Chomsky: Critical Assessments, Volumes 2–3. Taylor & Francis. p. 617 Archived 9 January 2020 at the Wayback MachineISBN 978-0415106948.
  8.  Woodcock, George (2004) [1962]. Anarchism: A History of Libertarian Ideas and Movements. Peterborough: Broadview Press. p. 16. ISBN 978-1551116297[F]or the very nature of the libertarian attitude—its rejection of dogma, its deliberate avoidance of rigidly systematic theory, and, above all, its stress on extreme freedom of choice and on the primacy of the individual judgement [sic].
  9.  Long, Joseph. W (1996). “Toward a Libertarian Theory of Class”. Social Philosophy and Policy15 (2): 310. “When I speak of ‘libertarianism’ […] I mean all three of these very different movements. It might be protested that LibCap [libertarian capitalism], LibSoc [libertarian socialism] and LibPop [libertarian populism] are too different from one another to be treated as aspects of a single point of view. But they do share a common—or at least an overlapping—intellectual ancestry.”
  10.  Carlson, Jennifer D. (2012). “Libertarianism”. In Miller, Wilburn R., ed. The Social History of Crime and Punishment in America. London: SAGE Publications. p. 1006 Archived 30 September 2020 at the Wayback MachineISBN 1412988764. “There exist three major camps in libertarian thought: right-libertarianism, socialist libertarianism, and left-libertarianism; the extent to which these represent distinct ideologies as opposed to variations on a theme is contested by scholars.”
  11.  Francis, Mark (December 1983). “Human Rights and Libertarians”. Australian Journal of Politics & History29 (3): 462–472. doi:10.1111/j.1467-8497.1983.tb00212.xISSN 0004-9522.
  12.  William Belsham (1789). Essays. C. Dilly. p. 11. Archived from the original on 11 April 2021. Retrieved 26 October 2020Original from the University of Michigan, digitized 21 May 2007
  13.  OED November 2010 edition
  14.  Seeley, John Robert (1878). Life and Times of Stein: Or Germany and Prussia in the Napoleonic Age. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. 3: 355.
  15.  Maitland, Frederick William (July 1901). “William Stubbs, Bishop of Oxford”. English Historical Review. 16[.3]: 419.
  16.  Marshall, Peter (2009). Demanding the Impossible: A History of Anarchism. p. 641. “The word ‘libertarian’ has long been associated with anarchism, and has been used repeatedly throughout this work. The term originally denoted a person who upheld the doctrine of the freedom of the will; in this sense, Godwin was not a ‘libertarian’, but a ‘necessitarian’. It came however to be applied to anyone who approved of liberty in general. In anarchist circles, it was first used by Joseph Déjacque as the title of his anarchist journal Le Libertaire, Journal du Mouvement Social published in New York in 1858. At the end of the last century, the anarchist Sebastien Faure took up the word, to stress the difference between anarchists and authoritarian socialists”.
  17.  Woodcock, George (1962). Anarchism: A History of Libertarian Ideas and Movements. Meridian Books. p. 280. “He called himself a “social poet,” and published two volumes of heavily didactic verse—Lazaréennes and Les Pyrénées Nivelées. In New York, from 1858 to 1861, he edited an anarchist paper entitled Le Libertaire, Journal du Mouvement Social, in whose pages he printed as a serial his vision of the anarchist Utopia, entitled L’Humanisphére.”
  18.  Nettlau, Max (1996). A Short History of Anarchism. London: Freedom Press. p. 162. ISBN 978-0900384899OCLC 37529250.
  19.  Ward, Colin (2004). Anarchism: A Very Short Introduction Archived 13 January 2016 at the Wayback Machine. Oxford: Oxford University Press. p. 62. “For a century, anarchists have used the word ‘libertarian’ as a synonym for ‘anarchist’, both as a noun and an adjective. The celebrated anarchist journal Le Libertaire was founded in 1896. However, much more recently the word has been appropriated by various American free-market philosophers […].”
  20.  Chomsky, Noam (23 February 2002). “The Week Online Interviews Chomsky”Z MagazineZ Communications. Archived from the original on 13 January 2013. Retrieved 21 November 2011The term libertarian as used in the US means something quite different from what it meant historically and still means in the rest of the world. Historically, the libertarian movement has been the anti-statist wing of the socialist movement. Socialist anarchism was libertarian socialism.
  21.  Comegna, Anthony; Gomez, Camillo (3 October 2018). “Libertarianism, Then and Now” Archived 3 August 2020 at the Wayback MachineLibertarianism. Cato Institute. “[…] Benjamin Tucker was the first American to really start using the term ‘libertarian’ as a self-identifier somewhere in the late 1870s or early 1880s.” Retrieved 3 August 2020.
  22.  Russell, Dean (May 1955). “Who Is A Libertarian?”The Freeman5 (5). Foundation for Economic Education. Archived from the original on 26 June 2010. Retrieved 6 March 2010.
  23.  Paul CantorThe Invisible Hand in Popular Culture: Liberty Vs. Authority in American Film and TV, University Press of Kentucky, 2012, p. 353, n. 2.
  24.  Carlson, Jennifer D. (2012). “Libertarianism”. In Miller, Wilburn R., ed. The Social History of Crime and Punishment in America. London: SAGE Publications. p. 1006 Archived 21 December 2019 at the Wayback MachineISBN 1412988764.
  25.  Lester, J. C. (22 October 2017). “New-Paradigm Libertarianism: a Very Brief Explanation” Archived 6 July 2018 at the Wayback Machine. PhilPapers. Retrieved 26 June 2019.
  26.  Teles, Steven; Kenney, Daniel A. (2008). “Spreading the Word: The diffusion of American Conservatism in Europe and beyond”. In Steinmo, Sven. Growing Apart?: America and Europe in the 21st Century Archived 13 January 2016 at the Wayback Machine Growing Apart?: America and Europe in the Twenty-first CenturyCambridge University Press. pp. 136–169.
  27.  “National Book Award: 1975 – Philosophy and Religion” (1975). National Book Foundation. Retrieved 9 September 2011. Archived 9 September 2011 at the Wayback Machine
  28.  Schaefer, David Lewis (30 April 2008). “Robert Nozick and the Coast of Utopia” Archived 21 August 2014 at the Wayback MachineThe New York Sun. Retrieved 26 June 2019.
  1. See Kinsella, “The Origin of ‘Libertarian’”; also “Libertarianism After Fifty Years: What Have We Learned?“, in ,Legal Foundations of a Free Society (Houston, Texas: Papinian Press, 2023). []
  2. Libertarianism After Fifty Years: What Have We Learned? (transcript). []
  3. The PDF and HTML versions of the journal are apparently down now, but .mobi and epub versions are available here. []
  4. See also on this, See “Libertarianism After Fifty Years: What Have We Learned?“. []
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Below is an unedited (raw) transcript of my Yale speech “Balancing Intellectual Property Rights and Civil Liberties: A Libertarian Perspective,” available at KOL151. [continue reading…]

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Below is an edited transcript of my presentation “Argumentation Ethics, Estoppel, and Libertarian Rights” delivered (by remote video) at the 6th Adam Smith Forum, Moscow, Russia (Nov. 2, 2014).

Video and audio for the speech, plus further information and related resources, are available at Kinsella on Liberty Podcast, Episode 161.

 

Argumentation Ethics, Estoppel, and Libertarian Rights 

Stephan Kinsella
6th Adam Smith Forum, Moscow, Russia
Nov. 2, 2014
(Edited transcript)

Hello. This is Stephan Kinsella. I am speaking today from Houston, Texas in the United States. I am happy to be able to present to the Adam Smith Forum and I appreciate the invitation to speak. I did speak here in 2011, 1 remotely that time as well. I was unable to attend in person. And I hope to remedy that someday and to visit Moscow and Russia. But I appreciate the invitation.

Today’s topic will be on “Argumentation Ethics, Estoppel, and Libertarian Rights”. I have spoken and written on these topics before. More detail can be found in the notes to the podcast I will do of this lecture after the event. But if you want to follow up you can go to my website which is stephankinsella.com and I will have resources available there, primarily a previous Mises Academy course called “Libertarian Legal Theory” and also a course on the social theory of Hans-Herman Hoppe. 2

So a brief introduction. I am an attorney in Houston, Texas. I am a long-time libertarian and follower of the Austrian School of Economics, primarily the thought of Ludwig von Mises, Murray Rothbard and Hans-Herman Hoppe, and also have been an anarchist libertarian for quite some time. I have developed my own set of views about libertarian rights and related matters and that’s what the topic of today’s conversation will be. [continue reading…]

  1. KOL108 | “Why ‘Intellectual Property’ is not Genuine Property,” Adam Smith Forum, Moscow (2011)[]
  2. See:

    []

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Kinsella on Liberty Podcast, Episode 161.

This was my (remotely delivered) presentation at the 6th Adam Smith Forum, Moscow, Russia (Nov. 2, 2014):

From the programme:

“Entitled “Argumentation Ethics, Estoppel, and Libertarian Rights,” Kinsella discusses the nature and definition of libertarianism and surveys different arguments and theories for its particular conception of rights and politics, including natural rights, consequentialist, and utilitarian approaches. He concludes with an overview of two more recent and unique approaches to justifying libertarian rights, the “argumentation ethics” approach of Austrian economist and political philosopher Hans-Hermann Hoppe, and Kinsella’s own “estoppel” theory of rights.”

This is my second speech at the Adam Smith Forum; the first was “Why Intellectual Property is not Genuine Property,” 3rd Adam Smith Forum, Moscow, Russia (Nov. 12, 2011), also via remote video. [continue reading…]

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KOL160 | Bad Quaker on IP, Hoppe, and Immigration

Kinsella on Liberty Podcast, Episode 160.

I was on Ben Stone’s “Bad Quaker” podcast yesterday, episode 449. We discussed IP and then some of Ben’s previous comments on Hans-Hermann Hoppe’s views on immigration law.

Related links:

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In the June 15, 1969 issue of The Libertarian Forum, in an article “Massacre at People’s Park,” Murray Rothbard writes:

The cry has gone up that all this was necessary to defend the “private property” of the University of California. In the first place, even if this little lot was private property, the bayoneting, gassing, torturing, and shooting of these unarmed park-developers would have been “overkill” so excessive and grotesque as to be mass murder and torture and therefore far more criminal than the original trespass on the lot. You do not machine-run [sic] someone for stealing an apple; this is punishment so far beyond the proportion that “fits the crime” as to be itself far more criminal than the original infraction. So that even if this property were legitimately private the massacre is still to be condemned.

Secondly, it is surely grotesquerie to call the muddy lot “private property”. The University of California is a governmental institution which acquires its funds and its property from mulcting the taxpayers. It is not in any sense private property then, but stolen property, and as such is morally unowned, and subject to the libertarian homesteading principle which we discuss below. The people of Berkeley were homesteaders in the best American—and libertarian—tradition, taking an unused, morally unowned, muddy lot, and transforming it by their homesteading labor into a pleasant and useful people’s park. For this they were massacred.

This has hints of the leftist and left-libertarian view of property rights—that if there is “taint” or “original sin” in the origin of title to current possessed resources, then the title is not legitimate, and the resource may be regarded as “unowned” and is legitimately subject to homesteading. Why something that is stolen is to be regarded as unowned, as opposed to owned by some dispossessed claimants and original owners, is not clear, and seems to contradict later writing by Rothbard. 1

[Update: see also , discussing Rothbard’s “Confiscation and the Homestead Principle,” from Libertarian Forum, vol. 1.6, June 15, 1969, making similar left-libertarian arguments. And see also Mises, Rothbard, and Hoppe on the “Original Sin” in the Distribution of Property Rights as well as Justice and Property Rights: Rothbard on Scarcity, Property, Contracts… ]

But in any case, later writing by Rothbard, as of 1974 at the latest, seems to reject any such implications. As I noted in my post Justice and Property Rights: Rothbard on Scarcity, Property, Contracts…, Rothbard published his article “Justice and Property Rights,” 1974, and in two forms: first, in Egalitarianism as a Revolt Against Nature and Other Essays, which is available online here; and also, a second version, in Property in a Humane Economy, Samuel L. Blumenfeld, ed. (the second version is also included as a chapter in The Logic Action One, which is not online, and in Economic Controversies, which is available online). The two pieces seem identical but the latter version, from the Blumenthal collection, appends an important concluding paragraph that is not present in the earlier version:

It might be charged that our theory of justice in property titles is deficient because in the real world most landed (and even other) property has a past history so tangled that it becomes impossible to identify who or what has committed coercion and therefore who the current just owner may be. But the point of the “homestead principle” is that if we don’t know what crimes have been committed in acquiring the property in the past, or if we don’t know the victims or their heirs, then the current owner becomes the legitimate and just owner on homestead grounds. In short, if Jones owns a piece of land at the present time, and we don’t know what crimes were committed to arrive at the current title, then Jones, as the current owner, becomes as fully legitimate a property owner of this land as he does over his own person. Overthrow of existing property title only becomes legitimate if the victims or their heirs can present an authenticated, demonstrable, and specific claim to the property. Failing such conditions, existing landowners possess a fully moral right to their property.

It appears that language was added by Rothbard to combat the arguments of some, such as some left-libertarians, who want to argue that existing property titles are illegitimate because of their non-immaculate origins and, presumably, ought to be wrested from current nominal owners, especially the wealthy, and I suppose redistributed to the proles.

Or, as Rothbard wrote in ch. 9 of The Ethics of Liberty (1982):

To sum up, for any property currently claimed and used: (a) if we know clearly that there was no criminal origin to its current title, then obviously the current title is legitimate, just and valid; (b) if we don’t know whether the current title had any criminal origins, but can’t find out either way, then the hypothetically “unowned” property reverts instantaneously and justly to its current possessor; (c) if we do know that the title is originally criminal, but can’t find the victim or his heirs, then (c1) if the current title-holder was not the criminal aggressor against the property, then it reverts to him justly as the first owner of a hypothetically unowned property. But (c2) if the current titleholder is himself the criminal or one of the criminals who stole the property, then clearly he is properly to be deprived of it, and it then reverts to the first man who takes it out of its unowned state and appropriates it for his use. And finally, (d) if the current title is the result of crime, and the victim or his heirs can be found, then the title properly reverts immediately to the latter, without compensation to the criminal or to the other holders of the unjust title. 2

I do not see a closely corresponding passage in For A New Liberty (1973) (I stand to be corrected on this), so it appears to me that sometime between 1969 and 1973, Rothbard’s thought on this matter developed.

See also the related thoughts of thinkers like Mises and Hoppe on this issue, as discussed in Mises, Rothbard, and Hoppe on the “Original Sin” in the Distribution of Property Rights.

  1. I’ll have to find this language; I forget where it is. []
  2.  But cf. some arguably inconsistent comments elsewhere in ch. 9, and also in ch. 10. []
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Do Business Without Intellectual Property (Liberty.me, 2014)

Do Business Without Intellectual Property coverMy monograph Do Business Without Intellectual Property was released by Liberty.me earlier this year. The PDF file is here.

I release this material, insofar as legally possible (see Copyright is very sticky!), with a CC0 “no rights reserved” license.

The Table of Contents is listed below. A Liberty.met seminar discussion of these topics  is available at “KOL159 | Seminar: “Practical Solutions to the IP Trap

[Update: Liberty.me discussion forum about this topic.

In addition, I could have added more detail about defensive patent publishing and defensive patent pools:

Table of Contents

  • INTRODUCTION 3
  • WHAT IS IP? 5
  • WHY DO BUSINESSES NEED TO CARE ABOUT IP? 5
  • SHOULD WE ABOLISH IP? 6
  • IP VERSUS PROPERTY RIGHTS 7
  • HISTORY OF PATENT AND COPYRIGHT LAW 9
  • INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY IS CONTRARY TO FREE
  • MARKETS AND HUMAN FREEDOM 10
  • WHY DOES IP PERSIST? 12
  • IP, INNOVATION, AND FREEDOM 13
  • WHAT SHOULD YOU DO? 14
    • First, Do No Harm 14
    • But While IP Exists … 15
    • To IP or Not to IP 16
    • Steps You Can Take Now 17
  • EXAMPLES OF IP CONTRARIANISM 18
  • PUBLISHING AND COPYRIGHT 19
    • Music without Intellectual Property 21
    • Inventing without Intellectual Property 21
    • Dying without Intellectual Property 21
    • Patents 22
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KOL159 | Seminar: “Practical Solutions to the IP Trap”

Practical Solutions to the IP Trap - flyerKinsella on Liberty Podcast, Episode 159.

This is my seminar, Practical Solutions to the IP Trap, delivered to Liberty.me members on May 19, 2014, based on my monograph Do Business Without Intellectual Property (Liberty.me, 2014). This discussion, moderated by Matt Gilliland, provides an overview of IP and the issues faced by people in their careers and lives and offers suggestions as to how to ethically and practically navigate challenges posed by the existing IP system.

Transcript below.

Youtube:

See also:

TRANSCRIPT

Liberty.me Seminar: Practical Solutions to the IP Trap

Stephan Kinsella

Liberty.me, May 19, 2014

 

00:00:10

STEPHAN KINSELLA: Let me briefly define the background, the topic, and if I say anything that is confusing or anyone has questions, feel free to raise your hand, and Matt can let me know and I’d be happy to address something that I go over too quickly or that needs more elaboration.  Intellectual property, in the modern, capitalist, 21st century age, is an entrenched part of the western legal system, America, Europe, etc. and other countries as the west tries to push it and gets it entrenched in those countries.  It is considered widely to be part of the capitalist, property rights system.  In fact, patent and copyright, trademark and trade secret and other types of intellectual property are called intellectual property for a reason.

00:00:59

It was for a propaganda reason to try to get these things thought of as a property right.  Originally, they were thought of as privileges or policy tools by the monarch or the state, but under attack by free-market defenders, the proponents of IP started calling them property rights.  So this is where we are now.  We have a system where patent law, copyright law, trademark, trade secret, and other types of IP, which I can go into, are basically part of the landscape.

00:01:36

Now, the libertarian position, which I’ve argued for over a decade now, almost two decades now – the libertarian position is that patent and copyright law and other types of IP law are completely, 100% incompatible with free markets, competition, freedom of expression, freedom of speech, and individual property rights.  So I’m totally opposed to patent and copyright law.  I don’t think we should reform it.  That would be a good step.  But I think we should totally abolish it.  I believe that patents impose hundreds of billions of dollars of damage on the economy of the US, let’s say, every year.

00:02:27

I believe copyrights also impose damage and cultural distortion, and it represses and suppresses freedom of speech, freedom of expression, and it arms the state to come up with excuses to regulate the internet and restrict internet and digital freedom.  So there’s basically nothing whatsoever good about patent and copyright and other forms of intellectual property like trademark and trade secret.  But they are definitely entrenched, so that’s a fact of the modern world.

00:03:01

And I’ve talked at length on this.  I’ve got tons of podcasts and lectures and articles, and so do other people, which I have collected at my website, C4SIF.org.  So the background is that we live in a world with lots of non-free-market, non-libertarian interventions and measures and policies and practices and institutions like the drug war, taxation, minimum wage law, regulations, immigration restrictions, war itself, conscription lurking in the background, all these things.  They’re there.  They’re un-libertarian.  We don’t like them, and intellectual property.  So the question is what do we do about them?

00:03:46

Well, the political answer is that we should work to abolish them, but this course is more about practical ways that, as a person living in the real world, what do you do about it?  So my way of looking at it is that there’s different approaches.  Number one, there’s the moral approach.  So if your question is, what do I do as a moral person, in particular, as a libertarian, how do I act in the world?  Is it legitimate or moral for me to take part of the given system?  Can I drive on public roads?  Can I take part in the patent and copyright system, etc.?  So that’s one type of question.

00:04:33

And then there are other practical questions that relate to this.  For example, if I don’t want to use intellectual property, how can I avoid it?  Or is it a good idea for me to avoid it or to use it?  So all these issues arise.  So let me focus really quickly on the two main types of intellectual property, which is patent and copyright.  Patent law governs inventions.  Copyright governs creative expressions, artistic works.

00:05:10

These are the two big things.  So let’s take copyright first.  In a way, the question is a little bit moot because the way copyright works is it’s automatically granted ever since 1989 in the United States after acceded to the Berne Convention, which eliminated formalities, which was previously you had to register a copyright, and they put a copyright notice on a work to get a copyright.  Now, those requirements are eliminated.  So under the current law, ever since 1989, copyright is automatically granted.  So every time you write something down, make a painting, write a software program, you instantly have a copyright granted by the federal government whether you want it or not, and it’s almost impossible to get rid of it.

00:05:58

Okay, so the first thing to do is to recognize what the landscape is, what the threats are, what your rights are, what your options are, and the same thing is true for patent law.  So for copyright, the question would be what should you do?  What can you do?  Now, one of the approaches I think you can take is most of the things that people author, we want the word to get out there.  And so because the copyright automatically attaches to these things, it is a restriction on what others can do with it.

00:06:44

So for most people, as Cory Doctorow, for example, says, if people don’t know about your works, obscurity is going to doom you.  You want your works to be spread.  So one thing you can do is try to release your works into the commons as much as possible.  There’s both a moral and a practical reason for this.  The moral reason is because copyright is totally unjustified and illegitimate.  So that’s the moral reason.  The practical reason is that you want people to spread your ideas and your work, and you cand o this in today’s world by means of using the creative commons licenses.

00:07:25

Now, the one I recommend that people use is the creative commons attribution only.  That’s CC-BY.  I would prefer CC0, which is basically making it almost public domain.  I’m just concerned that the way the law works, that that is not an effective, legally enforceable license, and that means that people that read your works or want to use your works can’t rely on the license because they don’t trust it, and it’s like it’s copyrighted still.  So I think the most safe license would by the CC-BY, which is what I try to use as much as I can.

00:07:59

Now, practically, how does that help or hurt you?  It helps you because it helps get the – it makes your work easy to copy and spread.  And does it really hurt you?  I don’t think it does.  There is lots of ways you could profit from your writing, and we have to recognize most people don’t write or create for profit.  They do it for other reasons, or if they profit, they profit without the benefit of copyright law.  So in the cases where you would profit monetarily, having a CC-BY license wouldn’t really hurt you at all.  You’d get your reputation out there.  You’d get known more, and you – so one blog post I have is an example.

00:08:49

If you think about J.K. Rowling, the author of the Harry Potter novels, who is now the first or second-most rich woman in England – she’s a billionaire because of the movies and the merchandising and the novels from the Harry Potter series.  Take her, for example.  If she had released Harry Potter on Amazon Create Space, the first novel, and it had become popular, she would have made some money because the books are $1 or $2 or $3 each.  In a copyright-free world, let’s say, maybe she would have been pirated right away, but she still would have sold many copies.  She would have made a good sum of money, but she would have established her name as the author of a very popular series.

00:09:30

She could have, for example, said I’ve got book number two and three written already, and I will release it as soon as 100,000 or a million of my fans pledge $10 each to buy the book.  I guarantee she could have done that.  That’s $10-$20 million right there just for the next book or two.  So she easily is already at a 10-or-20 millionaire after one or two or three books, and she wrote seven, by the way.  So we can already see she’s approaching $100 million of value in a copyright-free world.

00:10:07

In a copyright-free world, anyone could have made a movie on the Harry Potter series.  But if there’s one or two or three studios trying to make the first Harry Potter movie, someone would have an incentive to approach her and get her cooperation, advisor, executive producer status, and endorsement to make the movie be the most popular one.  The Harry Potter fans are going to flock to the movie that is endorsed and authorized by the author of the books.

00:10:39

So we could easily see a profit-sharing arrangement where she makes another $10-, $20-, $30-, $40-, $50 million.  So already we can see that, in a copyright-free world, someone who has a popular work like a J.K. Rowling can easily become a multimillionaire.  So I see no reason why we can’t have authors of very popular works reworded.  So that’s one thing you can do.

00:11:07

Another thing, let’s take the patent field.  The patent field is a case of inventions.  What do you do?  Well, there’s a couple things you can do.  I’m not saying no company should ever – should never apply for patents.  Sometimes you need to in today’s world.  You need to, to acquire an arsenal of patents that you can use defensively.  But most smaller companies don’t have the resources to acquire enough patents that would really be effective defensively in most cases against competitors.  And in any case, patents are never defensive against trolls, patent trolls because you can’t countersue a troll.

00:11:49

I mean the whole purpose of having a patent arsenal is to have a weapon stash that you can use to countersue someone who sues you for patent infringement, so a competitor usually.  So if a competitor sues you for infringing one of their patents, you look through your stack of patents, and you try to countersue them back.  That is a useful technique.  It’s a big deadweight loss on society in innovation, but I can see why companies do that.  However, patent trolls don’t make anything themselves, so they’re not vulnerable to a countersuit.  So one of the big threats of patents is patent trolls, and acquiring patents doesn’t help you with that.

00:12:27

Moreover, like I said, having a patent stash doesn’t guarantee that you’re going to have an arsenal that you can use to defend yourself because there’s no guarantee that the person suing you can be countersued for one of your patents.  Moreover, these patents are expensive, and in any case, it’s extremely expensive to engage in a patent battle with a large competitor.

00:12:52

And so it’s – one approach some companies could take is, instead of wasting money acquiring patents and acquiring an arsenal of patents that they could never use in the first place, and they could never afford to defend because the attorney’s fees are so high, just make a decision never to use patents.  In fact, you could do what Twitter did and what Google has kind of quasi-done.  You could announce we have an anti-patent policy.  Twitter actually tied its own hands by agreeing with all of its engineers that they have kind of a co-ownership right in its patents so that it cannot cert its patents aggressively but only something defensively.

00:13:36

So what you could do is you could make a strategic decision not to ever use patents, not to even waste money acquiring patents.  And you could announce this to the world.  You could save money, and you could avoid getting locked into the trap of chasing a product design or something like that just because you happen to have a patent on it.  You could just be free to follow the innovation where it takes you.  Now, what about the danger of someone else patenting the same design that you’ve come up with?

00:14:06

Well, you could take advantage of the current law, which ever since the 20 – I think ’11, the America Invents Act under Obama.  If you just simply publish like on a blog or a website or a journal, if you publish your idea, then it prevents – it would serve as a prior art defense against someone else patenting the same idea later.  So you could just be totally open.  You could publish your ideas and say here’s what our ideas are.  We plan to pursue some of these.  The rest of them we don’t, and now these ideas are public, and so anyone in the world can use them, even our competitors.

00:14:49

But any patent that’s filed after this date would be challengeable as being invalid.  So those are some of the techniques that you can use.  There’s a whole strategical mindset to trying to get along in the world without intellectual property and patents and copyrights.  You could talk to lawyers like me, although most patent attorneys and copyright attorneys you talk to are going to be baffled by the idea that you don’t want to use these laws to your advantage, that you want to find a way to not use them.

00:15:29

But in the software industry, for example, this has been going on for 20 years, the GNU movement, the open-software movement.  There’s a growing free-culture movement, which is similar.  There’s a growing use of creative commons licenses among the artistic community.  Companies like Wikimedia, they provide open-source images and things like this people can use.  And so, of course, documentary makers and website designers are going to these sources instead.  If you design software, you’re going to use open-source software.  So there’s an increasing advantage to being part of the growing openness movement and advertising.  If you’re going to do it, advertise it, I would say.

00:16:20

You do have to sometimes use intellectual property.  Sometimes people get confused about what intellectual property means.  So, for example, people think that unless you have a patent on an idea, you can’t use it.  That’s not true.  The patent is only necessary if you want to prevent other people from using it.  The primary advantage of a patent – well, there are three ways you could use a patent on an image.  Number one is to sue competitors to try to extract royalties or rents from them.  If you think that’s too extensive or immoral or not your business model, that’s not really a concern, and I think it, by and large, should not be a concern.

00:17:01

Number two, you could use it defensively.  But as I said, it’s only a rare situation where you are going to be able to find a patent in your arsenal of patents if you’re a small company, let’s say, that happens to apply to a competitor’s products.  And it’s also a rare situation when you have the funds available to afford the $3 million or whatever it’s going to take to pay attorneys to fight back against a patent attacker in the first place, so it’s really just a huge waste.

00:17:35

For a startup company, let’s say, it is true that if you start looking for funding from investors and venture capitalists, they will often ask you what your intellectual property situation is.  Their main concern, especially for a small startup company, they don’t – they’re not really betting that you’re going to become a patent troll and take your one or two or three or five or ten patents and sue competitors and make a trillion dollars.  That’s not what they’re betting on.  They realize that it’s too expensive to assert your patents.  They understand that the primary purpose of patents is defensive, to defend your rights.

00:18:14

But if that’s the case, there are other ways to do that, which are cheaper, as I said earlier.  You could simply publish your ideas proactively and early on and establish a prior public written record, which prevents other people from patenting the same thing.  So if a venture capitalist says what’s your IP strategy?  What’s your IP portfolio?  You could say, well, we have a bunch of proprietary and good ideas.  Some are trade secret.  Some are kept secret.  And some we publish to prevent other people from patenting them.

00:18:48

And otherwise we don’t want to waste your good investor’s money, hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, on patents that we could never use.  Instead, we choose to be nimble and quick and flexible and just use our innovations and our technology as we need to without being locked into a given set of patents.  And to protect ourselves, we save our money, and we make sure we don’t infringe other patents, and we publish our ideas as soon as we come up with them to prevent our competitors from patenting them.

00:19:21

So there’s a whole philosophy and strategy there, which is not normal in the business industry because everyone is so linked into this IP mentality.  But there are definitely ways to survive in the world without IP and even to save money doing it and to prosper while doing it.  I can keep talking about some different examples now that I have in the paper and in other articles and blog posts I have written.  But let me see here what the – what questions we have now.  Travis – I don’t know if Matt wants to link anyone in.  If anyone has a question, feel free to link them in, or I can start – go ahead.

00:20:09

MATT GILLILAND: We’ve got one question here from Wesley Matthew.

00:20:13

STEPHAN KINSELLA: All right, go ahead.

00:20:14

MATT GILLILAND: So how does J.K. Rowling or other authors make money to support themselves to keep writing books, that is, before they become popular?

00:20:22

00:20:27

STEPHAN KINSELLA: Okay, so here’s my response to that kind of question.  First of all, I tried to address that already with the actual J.K. Rowling example.  How do you support yourself?  Let’s first realize what kind of question this is.  This is a question – it’s a legitimate question, and quite often the IP or the copyright advocate asks that question in a loaded way.  In other words, they don’t really want the answer.  They just – they’re shouting the question out at you as a challenge.

00:20:58

They’re saying that – they’re basically saying unless you can show me how authors can make a lot of money in your free market society, I’m not going to be in favor of it.  So that’s what they’re saying.  Now, I don’t think the questioner here is asking that, but we have to be wary of questions that are really loaded questions or statements posed as questions.  And we also have to understand that if you don’t know the answer to a question, it doesn’t mean that the copyright or patent system is legitimate.

00:21:34

The example I give is imagine that you lived in Soviet Russia in the 1970s or ‘80s or ‘60s, and someone was advocating for abolishing the communist system and establishing a free market.  And someone says, well, how many brands of toothpaste will there be?  How can we guarantee enough toothpaste will be sold?  I don’t understand how I’m going to choose between all these different brands of toothpaste that are going to be sold.  Even if you don’t know what’s going to happen in a free market, you can’t predict how many brands of toothpaste, what the free market is going to look like.

00:22:14

Just because you don’t have a direct answer to that question because you can’t predict the future doesn’t mean that communism has to be kept in place.  So that’s kind of the first answer.  The other thing to be aware of is most authors in today’s society, most authors in today’s society, don’t make any money at all, or much money, and there’s several reasons for that.  I mean just imagine the typical blog or even everyone’s participating in Facebook chat sessions and commenting.  People do this.  They don’t do it for money.  They do it because they’re interested in doing it for some reason.

00:22:54

Most academic texts or scholarly works are journal articles like in the social sciences, libertarian articles, economic articles don’t get paid a dime.  In fact, several journals you have to pay thousands of dollars just to be published there.  So most – the bulk of most creative work is done not for money anyway in human history and even in today’s copyright world is done not for profit.  And in the cases where it’s done for profit, it’s done for profit primarily of the publishing industry.  The publishing industry, the publisher’s, Hollywood, etc., they – or the recording industry, the studios, they have been propped up.  The whole system has arisen because of copyright, the whole publishing institution that we have.

00:23:49

Again, most authors don’t make very much money, which is why a lot of authors are self-publishing, are going to CreateSpace on Amazon, things like this now.  Most authors, if they make $5-, $10-, $20,000 a year off of something are pretty happy because, for a lot of people, it’s a side hobby or a side pursuit, or it’s something they would pursue anyway.  So I think we have to compare today’s situation, which has copyright, to a free market.  And you can’t just say there’s no way I can think of that most authors wouldn’t get paid or would get paid in a free market, and therefore, there’s something wrong with this idea because most of them are not getting paid now.

00:24:30

And, in fact, under today’s situation with the state in control of so many things, with so many regulations and taxes, people are made worse off because of that alone.  So, for example, to take a silly example, if the government tomorrow reduced the income tax rate by 50%, then most people that are just – they have a regular job doing something, making their money and they write on the side, well, it’s like they’re getting $10-, $15-, $20,000-a-year payment right away.  So they could use that to subsidize their creative pursuits.

00:25:10

So if we want there to be more creativity, we have to reduce the size and scope of the state.  We have to reduce taxes.  We have to reduce the state’s controls, the state’s – we also have to reduce the state’s copyright system in the first place, which causes some works to be impermissible, remixing, borrowing, derivative works, sequels, unauthorized movies, things like this, documentaries which are blocked for years because of the bizarre copyright claims, privacy claims, etc.  Allowing the state or counting on the state to prop up the creative process is totally unrealistic and unworkable.

00:25:58

So I just want to lay that out there.  It doesn’t really answer the question directly, but it points out that there’s only two really – there’s only two real alternatives.  That’s freedom or the state.  And the state situation just cannot work.  The state solution ends up causing people to be taxed and regulated, put in jail, restricted from using previous works.

00:26:24

There’s a privacy decision just last week in Europe, which is called the Right to be Forgotten, where, if you have a fact about your previous life or your earlier life somewhere on the internet, you can go to a court in Europe, and they will issue an order to Google to remove the link to a search on you, so people can’t find out a certain fact about you in the past.  Basically, it’s air-brushing history.  It’s Orwellian.  This is what totalitarian dictatorships do.  They just rewrite the past.  So in the name of all these attempts of the state to step in and be guardian of people’s creative works and their privacy rights, it ends up restricting our freedoms.

00:27:09

So the only real alternative is the free market and freedom.  So how would authors make money?  Well, some would have a job, a regular job, and they would do this as a side hobby.  There’s nothing wrong with this.  I think Francis Ford Coppola, one of my blog posts on C4SIF.org – if you just search for Francis Ford Coppola, the director, he says what’s wrong with getting up at 3 or 4 or 5 in the morning and writing – working on your play for two or three hours and then going to work during the day in a regular job?  So some people would have to support themselves.  They would be their own patrons basically.

00:27:49

But as we see in the world today with the internet, we’re having an emerging set of institutions and practices that enable – there’s something called – I think it’s called Patraon – P-A-T-R-A-O-N, A-E-O-N.  I may be misspelling it.  Patraon – it’s patron.  There’s Indiegogo.  There’s other things like this where – Kickstarter, where people can find ways to get supported by their fans or by people who support their works.  So the ultimate answer is an entrepreneurial one.  It’s basically how do you find a way to get supported or to support a project that you want to engage in either for profit or not for profit?

00:28:35

It’s really an entrepreneurial question, and there’s lots of suggestions about this.  On my blog, C4SIF.org, I have some posts about how can innovators get – make – get rewarded without intellectual property.  And there’s different techniques people use.  I’ve mentioned some of them already tonight.  There’s Indiegogo campaigns.  There’s patron support.  There is – you can do what Louis C. K. did, which he sold one of his – he had a website where he sold one of his comedy performances for $5 a download, totally open source, DRM-free, and he made several million dollars in just a week, way more than he needed to, to cover his costs.  And then he gave his staff $200,000 bonuses for Christmas and all this.  It was great.

00:29:24

And so maybe it petered off after a while, but so what?  It’s better than it would be in a copyright-controlled society.  So the ultimate answer is we don’t know exactly how you can make money in any endeavor in the free market.  But there’s lots of ideas about how you could, and there’s lots of reason to believe that there are things you could do absent copyright and patent to make money, and not only that.  Remember this: There are more ways to make money absent copyright because your restrictions that tie you down are now gone.  So lots of companies and producers and creators that are now restricted by copyright would be freed.

00:30:10

So they would also lose the ability to go around suing people for royalties.  That’s true.  But they would also be free to use whatever they wanted.  If you want to have a Michael Jackson hologram at a concert, you can do that.  If you want to perform someone’s song and do it in a better way like the Canadian astronaut performing the David Bowie song, you can do it.  I don’t know if you guys know what I’m talking about, but just like last week, David – there was a David Bowie song performed on the space station by a Canadian astronaut a year ago.

00:30:44

And he took the time to get a copyright license from David Bowie’s representative, but he could only get it for a year.  And so he performed some kind of acoustic rendering in space of a David Bowie song, and it was very popular on YouTube.  I actually never saw it, but I read about this.  Well, just a couple days ago it had to come down because the one-year license expired.  So those are just examples of the ways that copyright stifles freedom of expression, freedom of speech, and experimental artistic uses, which would flourish absent copyright.  It would be more of a challenge to find a way to make a profit, but there would be more ways to make a profit as well.

00:31:27

00:31:30

MATT GILLILAND: All right, so we’ve got another question here from Bern McCarty.  Regarding the defense where you try to establish prior art by publishing your idea, what minimum level of publishing is recommended?

00:31:42

00:31:47

STEPHAN KINSELLA: Okay, so in the past, there was a practice of – let’s say before the internet age, companies like IBM, one of the biggest, most prolific patentors in the world, and the most prolific, innovative companies in the world would also make it a strategic decision every year about which ideas they had that they wanted to patent and which ones they did not want to patent.  The ones they did not want to patent, they would publish – they would often publish a little short paper by the engineers in a journal that they published.

00:32:23

It was like the IBM Technical Journal or something, and they did that solely to establish a record, a prior-art record.  With the advent of the internet – excuse me – it’s a little bit easier.  And, by the way, there are other ways you can do it too.  There is something you can do on the – you can go to the USPTO.gov.  That’s the United States Patent and Trademark Office website, USPTO.gov.  And instead of hiring a patent attorney to file a patent application, which takes thousands of dollars, you could do something called an SIR, statutory invention registration.  There’s a small fee involved.  I think $100-$200, something like that, and that would be a way of publishing it too.

00:33:12

But you don’t need to go to that expense.  In today’s world, you could really simply just publish it on a blog.  Make sure the blog is going to be around for a few decades, and just publish the idea.  What’s key is that you have to disclose the idea in sufficient technical detail.  So this is a case where I wouldn’t worry about being boring or verbose or being overly technical.  More is better, so just publish everything you can think of.  Have a long post, or put a paper that you can link to in a blog post, which has all the details that you can think of.

00:33:48

You basically have to enable – you have to have an enabling disclosure.  An enabling disclosure means you have to provide enough written details and a written description sufficient to enable someone skilled in the art to make and use your invention without undo experimentation.  Now, that’s a lot of technical legalese, but that’s basically the criteria.

00:34:15

From a practical standpoint, what that means is you want to have a good technical disclosure, which explains how your idea works and that, if you imagine someone else in a similar technical field that read it for the first time, they would read the paper and they would say, oh, I get this idea.  And they would be able to go out and go in their garage or their workshop or their laboratory, and they would be able to make this eventually because you gave them enough details.  So if you disclose that level of detail, then on the day you publish it, from that day forward, no one else – well, I won’t say they won’t be able to patent it because they could patent it because the patent office doesn’t find that disclosure.

00:34:57

But even if they were patenting it, then that reference that you had published would be there and could be used to invalidate the patent later.  So – and by the way, let me just make clear.  This changed – the law changed when Obama changed the patent law a few years ago in the America Invents Act.  Before that point in time, there was a one-year grace period.  So if you published a paper on day one, then there was a still a danger that in the next year someone else could still patent it.  They couldn’t patent it if they’d learned about it from your paper because they wouldn’t be the inventor, but if they independently invented it, they could still file a patent on it.

00:35:38

But under the Obama America Invents Act, that changed.  And so from the day you publish it, it serves as a – what’s called an absolute statutory bar.  There’s what’s called an absolute novelty requirement now.  In any case, the quicker you publish it and the more detail you give, the better.  Now, the danger is that you’re going to let your competitors know what you’re doing, and they can start competing with you.

00:36:09

But realistically, if you have a real product, that’s going to happen anyway if you don’t have a patent.  If you start selling a product that’s popular, you’re going to advertise its features, and/or its features and secret sauce will be able to be discerned by reverse engineering anyway.  And competitors will start reverse engineering this and making knockoffs, which means competing with you, very soon anyway.  So you’re really not out anything by publishing it.  So that’s the answer to that question.

00:36:41

MATT GILLILAND: All right, for our next question, we’ve got Travis, The Green Guy, who would like to come on air to ask.

00:36:52

00:36:56

TRAVIS: Yes.  If you don’t mind, I have two questions.  One, how would you deal with trademark specifically?  For example, if Coca-Cola has a trademark on their symbol, the whole nine yards, what would it – it would be relatively easy to make another can with the exact same symbol with the exact same – maybe even the same product, especially if that product ingredients got released, what protection would there be, and how would that work in a free society without trademark?

00:37:31

Because I completely agree with you on copyright and patents, but I just don’t – that’s really the only example that I can think of as far as protection that’s needed because, on the internet, it doesn’t matter.  You can change a logo.  But for companies who invest millions of dollars in creating these logos and creating this brand, it’s almost impossible and very expensive just to flip the switch and change the logo.  I was reading some of your podcasts – or listen to your podcasts and reading…

00:38:06

STEPHAN KINSELLA: Explain – why did you mention the ingredients of Coca-Cola?  Tell me what the relevance of the ingredients because the ingredients is more about the trade secret, not the trademark.  Are you getting at two things here?

00:38:18

TRAVIS: That was me correcting the example.  Let’s say if that secret did get out, it’s a product that can be remade and a logo that can be copied.  What’s to protect them from – especially if it’s a physical product, not an internet product.  If it’s a physical product that can be remade and then the logo can be copied, that’s the only thing I can think of that would throw a hole in this.

00:38:44

Because I completely agree with you, and I’ve listened to your podcasts, and I’ve read some of your essays on this topic.  And I think you’re brilliant.  It’s just I can’t think of a way the system would protect people in a situation like that where the product can be copied and the logo.  How would you differentiate yourself, or how would it be – how would it work?

00:39:06

STEPHAN KINSELLA: Okay.  So that’s a good question.  Trademark is a confusing issue, especially because libertarians are a little bit sloppy with the fraud concept that they throw out there.  So libertarians will often say we’re against the initiation of force and fraud, but then they never quite explain why fraud is part of aggression or initiation of force or exactly what it means.

00:39:33

And then they’ll sometimes use fraud to mean being dishonest, and – which would imply that any time you tell a lie that you’re basically violating someone’s rights, which is not really true.  Dishonesty is not a good thing, but it’s not always a rights violation.  So this fraud concept of – and not only that, if they support trademark law because they’re against fraud, why do we need trademark law because fraud is already allegedly a crime or a cause of action in a libertarian contract or whatever legal system.  So it’s not really clear exactly what they mean.

00:40:11

So here’s what I think would happen.  First of all, think about the case of just people and names, like your name, my name, Matt’s name.  I mean what’s to keep me from naming my son Matt Gilliland if I wanted to?  Or maybe there are 20 Matt Gillilands in the country right now.  I don’t know.  It could be the case.  Now, what’s to keep that from happening?  Well, first of all, nothing is going to keep it from happening, and there are probably more than one – my name is a little bit unique, but there’s probably more than one Normal Kinsella in the world.  There’s probably more than one Travis in the world, so it’s not really a problem that there’s more than one.

00:40:56

So you could have more than one Mr. Hamburger in the world, and it probably wouldn’t be the world’s biggest disaster.  It only gets to be a problem when the reputation gets to be big and you use it as part of your sales pitch and your marketing.  So here’s what I think would happen.  I do think fraud would be a cause of action in a libertarian society but only in a narrow sense, that is, fraud understood as a type of deceit and theft from a customer by trick or by deception.

00:41:29

TRAVIS: Oh, so you would have the customer basically doing the lawsuit and not the…

00:41:36

STEPHAN KINSELLA: So that’s – part of the problem with trademark law is that the person who holds the trademark is the company using the mark, the trademark holder.  So they can sue someone using their mark even though the allegedly wronged victim is not the trademark holder but the customer.  And number two, if the customer is wronged, it’s only because they’re defrauded.  But if they’re defrauded, they already have a fraud right, so why do they need a trademark right?  And in fact, trademark law gives them the right to sue even when there’s no fraud, and in fact, it gives the trademark holder the right to sue, not the customer.

00:42:15

So, for example, take the case of – I just think that this is really not a problem.  I do think that the problem of copyright and patent advocates point to is a real problem.  Well, I don’t think it’s a problem, but it’s a real phenomenon.  It is true that if you start making a new pharmaceutical drug or if you sell a novel, it is true that people without a copyright or patent system will be able to compete with you and copy that.  That is true.  I don’t think it’s a problem.  I think it’s a good thing, but that’s the way it is.  But in the trademark case, I think there’s really a non-problem because there’s really two main situations.

00:42:56

Number one, we have a cheap knockoff, which is not fraudulent.  So, for example, a fake Rolex watch for $20 being sold by some guy with a heavy briefcase – heavy trench coat full of watches on the streets of New York or a van, kind of one of these shady situations.  In that case, there’s no fraud whatsoever going on.  The customer has no complaint.  The customer knows he’s buying a knockoff watch.  So no one’s property rights are being violated whatsoever, and that should not be prohibited.

00:43:31

The other situation would be where, imagine I want to buy a Rolex watch, and I have $5,000 saved up to buy a Rolex watch.  I’ve always wanted one for my whole life, and I’ve worked my life, and I’ve saved up.  I go to the Galleria here in Houston, the Houston Galleria, and there’s all these nice, posh stores, Louis Vuitton and Zegna and all these nice stores, and I walk into a store with a Rolex label of it, and I buy a Rolex watch for $5,000.  Well, then I find out later it was a fake.  Well, if that really happened, I suppose I would have a cause of action for fraud against this company, and I do admit that there would be a cause of action for fraud.

00:44:18

It’s hard to imagine that actually happening in real life though because how would this company get set up?  How would they actually have a storefront in a Galleria?  The Galleria is not going to host a knockoff company that’s getting sued left and right every day for fraud.  The company is not going to be able to survive for very long if they’re getting massive lawsuits by one customer after another for fraud.

00:44:42

The fact is that when people start their own companies, and they’re legitimate businessmen, they want their own names on it.  They want to distinguish themselves from the customer.  Just think of the hamburger industry in the US.  It seems like a homogenous thing.  Everyone’s got hamburgers.  There’s really no difference between McDonald’s, Wendy’s, Burger King, and yet the people that started these companies think there’s a difference.  Burger King didn’t say McDonald’s.  They said Burger King.  Wendy’s called themselves Wendy’s.  You have Hardee’s, Wendy’s.  You have Krystal Burger.  So everyone – any legitimate company is going to want their own name on it.  So I just don’t think it’s a real problem.  But to the extent there’s a problem, basically fraud law, I think, would cover it.

00:45:27

TRAVIS: But in that situation, you would have the customer doing the legal action and not the company per se.

00:45:35

STEPHAN KINSELLA: Yes, and you could theoretically have class actions.  Let’s say there’s thousands of customers defrauded by some company.  And you could imagine situations, but almost every trademark case you hear of in today’s world is totally bogus.  You have Toyota, which sells Lexus, L-E-X-U-S, cars.  I’m sorry.  It’s the other way around.  You had LexisNexis, L-E-X-I-S, the news service, suing Toyota 15 or so years ago when they came out with their Lexus car because they said that was confusingly similar to customers.

00:46:15

Now, who is really going to buy a Lexus automobile and believe that it’s being sold to them by LexisNexis news publishing?  I mean no one.  So there’s no fraud whatsoever.  This is what happens all the time, and in fact, trademark law is used primarily nowadays for censorship and free – to shut down – I think one of the cases – there’s a guy up in Maine or Connecticut, one of these New England states, who was selling – he sells t-shirts that say Eat More Kale, K-A-L-E.

00:46:47

And Chick-Fil-A sued him because they have – their slogan is Eat Mor Chiken, spelled M-O-R, misspelled actually because the cows can’t spell right.  And so this poor individual has been defending himself for a couple years now with donations because some giant corporation is just trying to run him into the ground for no reason.  There’s no competitive threat whatsoever.  There’s no fraud whatsoever.  There’s no harm to their market whatsoever.

00:47:18

But trademark law, under the current statutes, gives them the right to do this to him, and I don’t know if they’re going to win or not.  I don’t know what actually happened.  It may be still ongoing.  But even if he wins, he’s going to have spent months of his life and millions of dollars defending himself.  So trademark law is not as horrendous I think in its effects as patent and copyright, but it’s 100% completely illegitimate in my view.  And so is trade secret law, by the way.  Trade secret law is totally unnecessary and illegitimate because you don’t need a law to permit you to keep information secret.  You can just do it if you have property rights protected.

00:47:58

What trade secret law does is it gives you the right to go to a court to issue an injunction against third parties to tell them they can’t use information that they got if it’s still pretty much secret, if you have a trade secret in it.  Apple has done this, for example.  I think they used the cops to bust into some guy’s house about three years ago.  Remember that iPhone was left by an Apple employee on a barstool somewhere.  And the next day or three or four days later, Apple busted and used the cops to burst into someone’s apartment and to issue – used trade secret law to do this.

00:48:40

Look.  It’s their fault that they left the iPhone out.  It’s not someone else’s fault that they found the iPhone.  Maybe they still owned the actual iPhone.  I would say that under property law principles, they could get their iPhone back.  I don’t deny that.  But if the guy had taken a picture of it or learned something about it and publicized it in the meantime, I don’t think he’s violated anyone’s rights.

00:49:00

MATT GILLILAND: All right, thank you, Travis.  I’ve got a question from Max Hill.  Does a public disclosure, such as publishing in an academic journal, prevent others from patenting any science disclosed?

00:49:17

00:49:21

STEPHAN KINSELLA: Yes.  Well, it doesn’t prevent them because the patent system is not perfectly efficient.  So it is – as I said, that would be like saying if you don’t do anything wrong, it doesn’t mean you can’t be sued.  No.  You can still be sued.  It just means you should win.  You probably will win if you haven’t done anything wrong.  Same thing here.  The patent system provides that you should not be able to obtain a patent on an idea that is already public.

00:49:57

That doesn’t mean that the patent office is going to realize that when someone applies for a patent.  But what it would do is it would give you a defense.  So let’s say you published your paper on day one.  And six months or a year or two years later, someone else independently invents this idea and files a patent on it, and let’s say they get a patent because the patent office never sees the – your paper that you had published.  Well, you don’t really care if they have a patent.  All you care about is that they assert it against you, and if they threaten you with a patent or if they sue you for patent infringement, then you would have a defense.

00:50:37

You could simply say, listen, you have sued me for patent infringement, but I have a paper published before you filed for your patent, which means that your patent is invalid, and I will be able to prove that if you sue me in court, so go away, please.  So it would at least give you a defense.  Moreover, if you publish the invention in a paper, let’s be clear.  The only way you’re supposed to get a patent is if you are the inventor of the patent, of the invention.  So unless the person who filed a patent independently invented it, they’re still not entitled to a patent, so there’s two barriers.

00:51:21

So if someone learns of the idea from you, they’re not the inventor.  You are.  You just chose not to get a patent on it.  You published it.  You basically released it into the public domain.  By the way, there’s no counterpart procedure for this in the copyright system.  There’s really no easy way to make your copyrighted works non-copyrighted or in the public domain.  It’s almost impossible to do it.  There’s CC0, but it has dubious validity, and even that is not easy to do the right way.  But patents at least you can.  If you just refrain from filing for a patent and if you publish the idea, it basically becomes public domain.

00:52:01

MATT GILLILAND: All right, we’ve got a question from Wesley Matthew.  In countries with little or no copyright protection, how does innovation compare to those with copyright?

00:52:14

00:52:20

STEPHAN KINSELLA: In today’s world, most countries have acceded to the modern conventions like the Berne Convention for copyright, the Paris Convention, and the Patent Cooperation Treaty for patents and the WIPO, World Intellectual Property Organization, all these different conventions.  So most countries have minimum standards of intellectual property but mostly at the behest of American and the western countries.  Primarily America, at the behest of the pharmaceutical industry, the music industry, and Holly wood, have twisted the arms of most other countries in the world to go along with our type of system, even though they are basically harmed by it.

00:53:04

It’s basically a wealth transfer from every other country to the US and to these three industries in the US: the pharmaceutical, the music industry, and the movie industry, Hollywood.  So I would say – and so there are some countries with lower copyright protections, but I would say that’s an instance – and they tend to be poorer countries, but I think that’s not an instance of causation and correlation.  That’s more of an instance of just – it’s just correlation.  You could make other correlations with antitrust law or tax law enforcement.  For example, you could say that your typical poor country has more corruption, more bribery, and worse tax law enforcement than the US.

00:53:54

But you couldn’t draw the conclusion that, if you have greater tax enforcement and greater antitrust enforcement and less corruption and bribery that you have more wealth.  You couldn’t draw that conclusion.  I think the problem is that you have these relatively liberal, free-market economies like the United States, and they become rich because they have relatively free market internal policies, or we have a very large free market here, pretty much an unregulated, free market, capitalist, property rights system.

00:54:43

But the state is there, and the state taxes and survives off the revenues produced by the underlying economy.  So you have these states, which become powerful and rich because they’re parasitically taking money off of the underlying economy, and they also tend to expand their own power and authority.  They start exerting minimum wage laws, affirmative action laws, anti-discrimination laws.  They start becoming more bellicose internationally.  They become more imperialistic, more warlike.  So you have these things going hand in hand.  I would say that the richness of the underlying free-market society is the cause of the non-free-market things that the state that depends upon the society does rather than the other way around.

00:55:35

Now, if you want to take some actual examples, there have been examples in the past of some historical episodes I think in the 1800s or about 50 years.  Let’s say Germany had almost no or very lax copyright laws.  And the empirical evidence shows that they were out-producing England, which was a comparable society at the time, in the number of published works and things like this.  And Italy and Switzerland I think for a good 50 or 100 years had no patents on pharmaceuticals, and yet they were two of the largest producers of pharmaceuticals at that time.

00:56:15

So there are episodes in history where we can point to where there’s been a lack of or much more reduced form of patent or copyright and which we can see that there was still a huge amount of innovation and research and development and artistic creativity being done anyway.  And I’ve got some surveys and some studies on my C4SIF.org website to that affect.

00:56:43

00:56:46

MATT GILLILAND: All right, we’ve got a question from – another one from Travis, The Green Guy, which I actually like this question a lot.  Can a public disclosure from person A also protect person B from company C’s patent that was filed after the publishing date?

00:57:07

STEPHAN KINSELLA: Yes.  Yes.  Once it’s public – there is in our – yes.  Yes, it doesn’t matter who published it.  As long as it’s published, then company C’s patent is potentially invalid.  So company – person B would be able to use person A’s publication as a defense and say that person C’s patent is invalid because it shouldn’t have been issued.

00:57:34

Now, there is a unique twist in the law that Obama had passed, which is that company A – in the hypothetical you just gave, person A has one year to file a patent.  They can still file their own patent, so person A could disclose their invention on day one.  They have up to one year to decide whether they want to file a patent.  They have a one year statutory – they have a one-year sort of grace period, we call it.  But no one else does.  It’s a bizarre situation.  So I can’t get into the weeds here, but you could imagine a bizarre situation where person A files on day one.  I’m sorry.  Person A publishes their invention on day one, and person B publishes – or files a patent on day two.

00:58:32

Now, under the Obama America Invents Act, we changed our priority system to where the first person who files is entitled to the patent.  If there’s two competing inventors, the first one who files is entitled to a patent, which is what the rest of the world has in their patent systems.  America, until two or three years ago, had a different system where it was the first to invent.  That’s one reason they made this change.  But because of this change in the publication grace period, a strange twist of this is that if person A invents the invention first and person B invents it later, then person B can still get the patent if they file first.

00:59:18

That’s the basic law right now.  But if person A makes it public first, then person B is now prohibited from getting a patent on it.  But person A has a year to decide to file – they have a one-year grace period, but it only affects A, not B.  So the only example – the only exception to the answer to the question is that B is protected by A’s publication from C’s patent, but B wouldn’t be protected from A’s patent.

00:59:47

00:59:50

MATT GILLILAND: All right, I’ve actually got a question.  You said – you suggested using creative commons by attribution license.  Now, why would you suggest that instead of creative commons by attribution, share and ShareAlike, which for the audience means that they have to both attribute the work, and they have to release everything they create under the same kind of license, which prevents them from using copyright against others using works that are based on yours?

01:00:21

01:00:26

STEPHAN KINSELLA: So my basic thinking is that I want to release my works from copyright as much as possible.  If I could just say this is hereby public domain, that’s what I would do, which is what CC0 tries to get at.  I’m just afraid CC0 wouldn’t be legally effective.  It might be.  It’s not clear.  To be honest, I’m not even sure CC-BY or any of the CCs are legally effective, but apparently, they’re being treated that way right now.

01:00:53

The reason I’m not sure any CC license is legally effective is, number one, I’m not clear what the consideration is for the contract.  And number two, I’m not sure how the alleged licensee is going to prove he had a license.  In a normal copyright license, you and I would have a document we would sign where you pay me some money, or you do something for me in exchange for me granting you a license.  So there’s consideration, which is you’re giving me something back, and you have to have consideration to have a binding contract in most common law countries.

01:01:29

And number two, you have proof of it because you have a copy of the contract.  So if I ever sued you for copyright infringement, you could simply say what are you talking about?  You gave me a license.  In the creative commons case, I’m concerned that there’s no consideration, and I’m concerned that the person who might be sued for copyright infringement—the licensee, the user—wouldn’t be able to prove he had a license because – so let’s say I publish a novel on my website, and I put CC-BY on there.

01:01:57

And then, in the meantime, you download it and you start making copies of it.  Okay, you’re permitted to do that.  But let’s say a year later I just change the – I just update the file on my website, and I change it from CC-BY to copyright, and then I sue you for copyright infringement.  Now, you claim – your defense is that you have a license.  Well, how do you prove you had a license?  When did I grant you this license?  Did we negotiate it?  Do you have a written, signed copy?  So you see there’s a question of proof, and there’s also a question of consideration.  Even if you can prove that I had the CC-BY notice on there, so what?  Where is the contract?  Where is the – what did you give me?  What consideration did you pay me as a user to make the contract valid and binding?  So I’m concerned about that.

01:02:48

But let’s put that aside.  Let’s assume that the creative commons is enforceable.  The reason I prefer CC-BY to CC0 is because I think CC-BY has a greater chance of being enforceable than CC0 does, and I’m just going by what the Creative Commons Foundation itself says on their website.  They had these warnings that CC0 may not be enforceable in every jurisdiction and all this kind of stuff.  So they have some concern that CC0 is not enforceable probably because of what’s called moral rights and also the inalienability of copyright in some countries like in Europe.

01:03:24

CC0 sort of tries to undo what they view as an inalienable human right, which is copyright, or something like that.  So that’s my concern about CC0.  I would use CC0, and in fact, I try to use it in a creative way on my website just to shut people up who say I’m a hypocrite for not using it even though they don’t understand that it may not be enforceable, but whatever.  So I use CC-BY because all it requires is attribution, and I figure that’s a restriction that almost no one minds anyway because, if you copy someone’s work, you pretty much want to say who wrote it because otherwise no one’s going to want to take the copy you made because they don’t have the full copy because the copy includes the author’s name.

01:04:05

Now, the other ones like ShareAlike and also ND, which is no derivative works, and NC, non-commercial use, I don’t like those at all.  I certainly don’t like non-commercial and non-derivative because it’s an attempt to use copyright law to prevent people from using your work as they want to use it.  If you’re going to NC or ND, no creative works – I’m sorry – no commercial use or no derivative works, you might as well just have a copyright notice and prevent people from using your work.

01:04:35

I don’t really see why you would use CC at all in that case.  And in fact, I think they’re vague.  I don’t really know what a non-commercial use really means because if I have a “not-for-profit blog” or a hobby blog like I do, but I had Google advertising in the corner of my website, and I copy someone’s CC, NC work, am I using it commercially because it’s helping draw traffic to my website and I’m making some Google AdSense revenue?  I don’t know, maybe.  But the point is that’s not a good license because it’s restrictive.  So I do understand the ShareAlike license.  The ShareAlike license is the one that some libertarians and others prefer to use instead of BY, which is attribution only.  It’s more similar to what’s used in the copy – in the software case of the open-source-type licenses, which is – I forgot – GNU or something like that where you have to…

01:05:38

MATT GILLILAND: Yeah, the GNU GPL.

01:05:40

STEPHAN KINSELLA: GPL.

01:05:41

MATT GILLILAND: General public license.

01:05:42

STEPHAN KINSELLA: So if you use someone’s source code, the only condition is you have to release your source code that borrows from it under a similar license.  I can understand that idea.  I think it makes – I don’t like it even in software, to be honest.  I prefer to just open things up and let people do what they want with them.  One reason people do that is they have a mistaken understanding of what copyright is.  They say, well, if I don’t copyright my works, then someone else is going to run around and copyright it.

01:06:09

Well, first of all, you don’t copyright anything.  As I said, it’s automatic, so that’s a mistaken understanding of how copyright works.  So I don’t think that’s a good reason to do it.  I just don’t like ShareAlike because – let me give you one example.  If I have a – like the Journal of Libertarian Papers, which I created and which I’m the executive editor of, we have a CC-BY policy.  If we had a CC ShareAlike policy, then – well, under our current policy, any publisher that wants to use one of our articles in one of their books – like let’s say there’s an anthology of articles on a certain topic and they want to take one or two Libertarian Papers articles.

01:06:54

They can do that without asking our permission.  They don’t need my permission.  They don’t need the journal’s permission.  They don’t need the author’s permission.  They already have their permission.  It’s built into the article under the CC-BY.  They can use it, and we want our ideas out there, so that’s a good thing.  Okay, so if I can’t find the author, if the author is dead or his widow is around and she’s crazy or whatever, that’s not going to be a hindrance to this idea getting out there.

01:07:16

If it’s CC ShareAlike, most books are being published by publishing companies with fairly standard copyright policies, and they’re not going to have a CC-BY policy or even a CC ShareAlike policy.  So they can’t include this article in this book unless they make the whole book CC ShareAlike.  So I’m restricting what they can do with it, and it’s like I’m trying to use copyright law to twist their arms to become a libertarian or to have a libertarian policy, and I just don’t like that.

01:07:49

I prefer to have it open and let them do with it as they see fit.  The article is still CC-BY even if they include it in their book.  Their book may be copyright normally, so someone still couldn’t copy their book, but that’s their decision, not mine.  So I don’t feel it’s my obligation to use my copyright leverage to force other people to adopt similar policy in their other published works.

01:08:16

So that’s my reasoning.  I respect other libertarians who prefer to use the CC ShareAlike as more of an activist tool, but I think they’re hurting themselves because, as I said, you basically are preventing your work from being used in any other kind of journal or omnibus volume or collected anthology because they just – the CC ShareAlike copyright provision is tantamount to a copyright provision, which means they can’t use it without getting the permission of the author.  And the whole purpose of the CC-BY is so that people can use it without having to come to you for permission, so that’s sort of my thinking on that issue.

01:08:56

MATT GILLILAND: All right, one last question before we call it a night.  I know there are ton a more questions.  That just means that Stephan’s going to have to come back some time.

01:09:08

STEPHAN KINSELLA: I’d be happy to come back.  People can email me too, by the way, so that’s fine, but go ahead.

01:09:12

MATT GILLILAND: From Bob Vacanti, could blockchain technology by adapted to record patents as it authenticates Bitcoin transactions?

01:09:19

01:09:29

STEPHAN KINSELLA: I’m trying to think how to answer this.  I think patents are completely illegitimate grants of monopoly privilege by the state.  So I don’t want to find a way to make them more efficacious.  And also, this question gets at a non-problem.  I mean patents are – the word patent means open.  That’s what it means.  They’re, by definition, public, which is why these people that think that there are these secret patents out there that the oil industry has gobbled up and kept 100-mile-per-gallon carburetors and engine designs off the market makes no sense because if they existed, you could find them with a search on the USPTO.gov website.

01:10:13

So, in other words, we already have a record of the patents.  It’s the USPTO.gov website and other websites around the world, WIPO websites and the PCT search engines, things like that.  So there’s no problem with knowing who has which patent.  Every patent as a unique serial number already.  It’s already made public.  It’s already easily searchable.  And believe me, if you’re sued by someone for patent infringement, they will be able to prove they have a patent.  So there’s no problem of the – there’s no inability of patent holders right now to prove they have a patent.

01:10:46

I think what the question is getting at is something different.  I think they just worded it legally imprecisely.  I think what they’re saying is could you have a free-market system, which doesn’t rely upon the state or a state patent office where people could register their inventions and get some kind of protection for them that way.  And I think that’s a premature question because you don’t need Bitcoin for that or something like the blockchain for that.  That would just make it more efficient.  The question is would that make sense in the first place.

01:11:25

I think the Tannehills, by the way, in The Market for Liberty, which is an anarchist book from the ‘70s, Morris and Linda Tannehill, they were basically Randians objectivists who became anarchists.  But they still clung to the IP idea, and they proposed in a few paragraphs in that book that maybe you could have some kind of private, free-market system for protecting inventions other than the patent system.  What they proposed was that you could register your ideas with some title agency, and you wouldn’t have to rely upon the government to do that.

01:12:00

But once you had it registered, you could use some kind of private legal system to sue people who were using your ideas because you had shown that you were the first one to invent this idea, and you could point to a public record of it.  So I guess you could imagine a blockchain-type system would be a more efficient way of recording information like that.  I just don’t think information like that is relevant in a free market.  In other words, it’s not legally relevant who first came up with an idea because there’s no property rights in ideas in the first place.

01:12:33

So yes.  I think the blockchain could be used for that.  Probably a more realistic or practical example or use of the blockchain would be registering ideas for credit.  Like, for example, Leibniz and Newton – there’s a fight over who came up with calculus first.  And Einstein and others had fights over who came up with certain physics theories first.  But it wasn’t for legal property or IP reasons or patent reasons.  It was just for credit in the scientific community.

01:13:04

So I suppose you could imagine a blockchain being used for that, but that’s totally a private, social convention, which has nothing to do with the law.  So I would say because ideas and information cannot be owned and are not the subject of property rights, it wouldn’t make sense to imagine a private record-keeping system, including blockchain, being used to track the authorship of ideas for some kind of property rights purpose in a free society anyway.

01:13:38

01:13:41

MATT GILLILAND: All right, thanks, everybody.  And thank you, Stephan.  We’ve had a great time here tonight, and we’ll definitely have Stephan back here soon.  Tomorrow night at 8 o’clock, we’ve got an author’s forum with Tom Palmer over the new SFL book, Peace, Love, and Liberty.  So join us there tomorrow night.  Hope to see you there.  Thanks everybody for coming, and take care.  Have a good night.

01:14:11

STEPHAN KINSELLA: Good night.  Thanks.

01:14:12

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My exchange with a high school teacher from Norway, whose class had some questions about the libertarian approach to certain issues.

I am teacher at a high school in Norway. During my classes I have spent some time trying to explain libertarianism to my students, and I have used some of your articles, and of course Murray Rothbard has been central.

Some of the students have really dug into the material, to my surprise really. Regarding the extent anyway.

I am writing to you because I simply have trouble answering their questions up to a point, and I would sincerely appreciate it if you would help me with some questions here:

1) What happens on a territory – in a stateless society – where a person or a group of persons are starving to death because nobody will employ them, do business with them, help them etc. What are they supposed to do? Starve to death because, after all, those who wont help them have gained their properties just and should thereby not be attacked? What if survival for them triumphs “justice”? Will this not be an unstable society? Is it not easy to understand that these people will choose war rather than death?

2) Mobility: How can a stateless society avoid that a rich misantrophe uses his rights to block important trade routes and roads?

3) Is it reasonable to accept that private persons can own nuclear weapons or high-tech modern war weapons?

4) The ethics of Liberty by Rothbard; do you hold this as the primary work in freedom ethics, and do you find any flaws in it? Or is it as you see it flawless, and thereby a document which should be basis for a “common law”?

5) There has been some talk about Rothbards work on children here in Norway; is it correct that he meant that not feeding ones child should not be a punishable offense by common law? Do you support this and his reasoning behind it?

Best regards,

[X]

[continue reading…]

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Libertarianism After Fifty Years: What Have We Learned?

Note: An updated and revised version of this transcript is included as chap. 25 of Legal Foundations of a Free Society (Houston: Papinian Press, 2023). The transcript/speech is below as well as the text of chapter 25.

Note: on the origins of modern libertarianism, see also Murray N. Rothbard, “Towards a Strategy for Libertarian Social Change” (April, 1977):

“The contemporary libertarian movement in the United States may be precisely dated as beginning just after World War II. … Into this wasteland there stepped Leonard E. Read, late of the Los Angeles Chamber of Commerce and the National Industrial Conference Board, who, in 1946, founded the Foundation for Economic Education. The creation of FEE marked the beginning of the modern libertarian movement in America.”

See also Rothbard, “Listen, YAFLibertarian Forum (Aug. 15, 1969).

And Rothbard, quoted in Rothbard on Leonard Read and the Origins of “Libertarianism”: “More than any other single person, Leonard was the founder of the modern libertarian movement. … ” 1

See also many, many references to “modern libertarianism” or “the modern libertarian movement” in The Complete Libertarian Forum (1969–1984). See also Roderick Long’s Foreword to the Laissez Faire Books edition of Jerome Tuccille’s classic It Usually Begins with Ayn Rand (2012): “It Usually Begins with Ayn Rand is a jazz improvisation on the early history of the modern libertarian movement …”

See also Matt Zwolinski and John Tomasi, The Individualists: Radicals, Reactionaries, and the Struggle for the Soul of Libertarianism (2023), p. 7:

After introducing libertarianism in chapter 1, we turn to introducing the three major periods or waves of libertarian thought. The first, “primordial” era covers the latter half of the nineteenth century, with special focus on Britain, France, and the United States. The second “Cold War” era runs from the 1930s through the 1980s and mainly centers in the United States. Finally, and more tentatively, we discuss the emerging “Third Wave” of libertarianism. 2

I agree that there are precursors to modern libertarian thought in the nineteenth century and before, but would not count the “primordial era” as modern libertarianism proper; in my estimation, and that of Rothbard, as noted above, modern libertarianism finds its beginnings in the 1950s and 1960s, with FEE and Ayn Rand’s works, especially Atlas Shrugged (1957), Milton Friedman’s Capitalism and Freedom (1962), and many other works by Bastiat, Mises, and so on.

See also Timeline of libertarianism in the United States.

As for my comment in the chapter that “the modern libertarian movement is only about five or six decades old,” this of course means there is still work to be done. As Ayn Rand herself wrote of Objectivism in 1978, just 4 years before she died (as quoted by Barbara Branden in the Foreword to Nathaniel Branden’s The Vision of Ayn Rand:

Much work remains to be done, as Rand was quick to acknowledge. In an interview with Garth Ancier of Focus on Youth in 1978, Rand was asked: “Miss Rand, is there anything more to say about your philosophy that you haven’t said already?” I’m glad you are not that acquainted with my philosophy, because if you were, you would know that I haven’t nearly said everything yet. I do have a complete philosophical system, but the elaboration of a system is a job that no philosopher can finish in his lifetime. There is an awful lot of work yet to be done. 3

We have made progress since the early days of Rand and Rothbard and their earlier progenitors and contemporary colleagues. Libertarianism has become more radical and more integrated with insights from Misesian-Austrian economics. Its numbers have grown, as have the numbers of scholars and books written.

As we do not have a fully libertarian world in which detailed libertarian law can organically develop, we have no body of concrete libertarian law developing. This will eventually be essential to have in a free society, since there are limits to what theory alone can do. Deduction, reasoning, and armchair theorizing can only get you so far. 4 The legal system of a free society will need to have concrete rules or legal precepts that are operational and that develop organically in decentralized legal systems, but based on more general and abstract libertarian principles of justice. 5 Such a libertarian legal order cannot develop until it starts being used.

In the meantime the activists can try to bring about more freedom more quickly and the theorists can keep trying to advance our understanding of liberty and libertarian principles. Again, there is much work left to be done in libertarian theory. Theorists since the days of Rand and Rothbard have continued to contribute to the edifice of libertarian thought, and there is much more that calls out for attention. 6

It is not for everyone. Some are not libertarian at all. Others are more or less libertarian in their lives but otherwise not interested in thinking about it or doing anything about it. That is fine. It’s enough to just be a productive, peaceful person. Still others are passionate about understanding the ideas, both to enrich their own lives and understanding and to help understand what can be done to make things better. Some are activists, both political and intellectual; others more cerebral and focused on understanding, teaching, correcting, writing (even if the activists, in their impatience and often with an anti-intellectual kind of snobbery, often disdain or even scorn or mock theory and the theorists).

Why work on understanding the ideas of liberty, on repeating them, preserving them, teaching them, correcting and developing and extending them, in an unfree world which largely sees this as unserious, pointless, a parlor game? In a sense, it is for the remnant, biding its time until it can be called into action. 7 We want to advance libertarian theory so that it can be used by jurists when a freer world emerges. 8

Update: non-errata: Ch. 25, around n.30: in the discussion of equivocation, see also Nicholas Dykes, “When Is a Monopoly Not a Monopoly? A Reply to Tibor Machan,” Libertarian Papers vol. 2, art. no. 9 (2010)

***

Below is an edited transcript of my speech “Libertarianism After Fifty Years: What Have We Learned?” delivered at the NYC LibertyFest (Brooklyn, NY, October 11, 2014; available at Kinsella on Liberty Podcast, Episode 152). The original title was “Libertarianism After Fifty Years: A Reassessment and Reappraisal” but I was allotted only about 15-20 minutes so condensed the scope and could only touch briefly on many of the matters discussed.

[ORIGINAL CHAPTER IN Legal Foundations of a Free Society (Houston: Papinian Press, 2023)]

25

Libertarianism After Fifty Years:
What Have We Learned?

 

This chapter is an edited transcript of my speech “Libertarianism After Fifty Years: What Have We Learned?”, delivered at the NYC LibertyFest in Brooklyn in 2014. I was allotted only a short speaking time, so the speech was somewhat condensed. I expanded on the issues touched upon in a transcript posted on my site, which is the basis for this chapter.[*]

 

INTRODUCTION

Hello. I’m glad to be here. Thank you to Ian and Mike for the invitation. I do have my eleven-year-old son with me. It’s the second or third time he’s seen me speak. He’s been to Auburn with me. I went to the New York Comic Con with him on Thursday. So turnabout’s fair play although it was fun. Comic Con was great.

I have fifteen minutes. My topic is “Libertarianism After Fifty Years—What Have We Learned”? If I get cut off, I will continue this in a private podcast. You can find more information, if I run out of time, because this is a big topic for fifteen minutes.

This is my own view of libertarianism. It might not be shared by everyone here. But what I would like to talk about is—what is the libertarian movement? How old is it? Where did we come from? What have we learned, and what’s to come?

THE MODERN LIBERTARIAN MOVEMENT[1]

In my view, the modern libertarian movement is only about five or six decades old. The ideas that have influenced our greatest thinkers can be traced back decades and centuries to previous movements and thinkers[2]—to the Enlightenment, to classical liberal thinkers, to thinkers from the Old Right, to luminaries such as Hugo Grotius, John Locke, Thomas Paine, Herbert Spencer, David Hume, and John Stuart Mill, and to more recent and largely even more radical thinkers, such as Gustave de Molinari, Benjamin Tucker, Lysander Spooner, Bertrand de Jouvenel, Franz Oppenheimer, and Albert Jay Nock.[3]

The beginnings of the modern movement can be detected in the works of the “three furies of libertarianism,” as Brian Doherty calls them: Rose Wilder Lane, Ayn Rand, and Isabel Patterson, whose respective books, The Discovery of Freedom, The Fountainhead, and The God of the Machine, were all published, rather remarkably, in the same year: 1943.[4] But in its more modern form, libertarianism originated in the 1960s and 1970s from thinkers based primarily in the United States, notably Ayn Rand and Murray Rothbard. There’s a reason Jerome Tuccille’s hilarious satirical memoir is entitled It Usually Begins with Ayn Rand.[5] Other significant influences on the nascent libertarian movement include Ludwig von Mises, author of Liberalism (1927) and Human Action (1949, with a predecessor version published in German in 1940); Nobel laureate F.A. von Hayek, author of The Road to Serfdom (1944); Leonard Read, head of the Foundation for Economic Education (founded 1946); and Nobel laureate Milton Friedman, author of the influential Capitalism and Freedom (1962).

The most prominent and influential of modern libertarian figures, however, were novelist-philosopher Ayn Rand, the founder of “Objectivism”—the political wing of which, dubbed “capitalism” by her, is more or less co-extensive with libertarian minarchism—and a “radical for capitalism”; and Murray Rothbard, the Mises-influenced libertarian anarcho-capitalist economist and political theorist. Rothbard’s seminal role is widely recognized, even by non-Rothbardians. Objectivist John McCaskey, for example, has observed, that out of the debates in the mid-1900s about what rights citizens ought to have:

… grew the main sort of libertarianism of the last fifty years. It was based on a principle articulated by Murray Rothbard in the 1970s this way: No one may initiate the use or threat of physical violence against the person or property of anyone else. The idea had roots in John Locke, America’s founders, and more immediately Ayn Rand, but it was Rothbard’s formulation that became standard. It became known as the non-aggression principle or—since Rothbard took it as the starting point of political theory and not the conclusion of philosophical justification—the non-aggression axiom. In the late twentieth century, anyone who accepted this principle could call himself, or could find himself called, a libertarian, even if he disagreed with Rothbard’s own insistence that rights are best protected when there is no government at all.[6]

We can date the dawn of today’s libertarianism to the works of Rand and Rothbard: to Rand’s Atlas Shrugged (1957), and to Rothbard’s Man, Economy, and State (1962), Power and Market (1970), and For a New Liberty (1973), plus his journal The Libertarian Forum (1969–1984). For a New Liberty stands today as a brilliant, and early, bold statement of the radical libertarian vision. By the mid-60s, the modern libertarian movement was coalescing, primarily behind the non-initiation of force principle and the “radical capitalism” of Ayn Rand and Rothbard’s systematic libertarian corpus based upon the non-aggression principle, or axiom. It is no surprise that the Libertarian Party was founded in 1971, as these ideas, and the liberty movement, were gaining steam.

In the ensuing decades, many other influential works appeared expounding on the libertarian idea.[7]

So the movement is about fifty or sixty years old. It’s a relatively young movement as far as ideologies and political philosophies go. We still have our disagreements over certain controversies like abortion and other issues. But a lot of progress has been made in the last fifty years. We’ve had a lot of development, partly because of incessant libertarian internal debate, criticism by outsiders, criticism by minarchists, criticism by insiders. But at the fifty year stage, I do think it is a good time to step back and reflect and think what have we learned over the last fifty years. How we could use this going forward to further refine and develop our ideas.

WHAT HAS BECOME CLEARER

So let’s talk first about what has become clearer in the last fifty years. And, again, not everyone is going to agree with this—but this is my take. My take is from the position of an Austrian and anarchist influenced libertarian; from someone influenced greatly by Rothbard, Mises, Ayn Rand—and Hans-Hermann Hoppe, whom I regard as the greatest living libertarian theorist and Austrian economist.

This first insight may not be the most popular with everyone here, but I think the one thing we’ve learned is that political activism as a primary means of progress is limited at best.[8] I don’t want to discourage people from doing it, but not everyone agrees with voting or that electoral politics is the way to go.[9] And the sort of sorry history and state of the Libertarian Party since 1971—incompetence, corruption, and inefficacy—shows that electoral politics has not succeeded very much so far.[10]

I would also say that we’ve learned that a principled libertarian position is preferred over an ad hoc or single purpose one like NORML or marijuana legalization or a utilitarian approach. Those have their purpose. They have their role. But a principled approach is superior and necessary. You really need to have a love for liberty, a love for libertarianism. You have to believe that aggression is really wrong, not just impractical.[11]

It has become clear that libertarianism has to be 100% anti-war, not merely against “unjust” wars—as even Rothbard said, in the history of America, there have only been two “just” wars: the Revolutionary War and the war to prevent the independence of the South. We need to condemn both of those wars, the Revolutionary War and the Civil War, on both the South’s and the North’s side. These are both wars waged by the state.

In the case of the Revolutionary War, it was a war that involved conscription, shooting deserters, tons of war crimes, taxation, inflation.[12] And it resulted in the current state that we have now. The American Revolution was a failure as well.[13]

Libertarianism is anti-state, or at least it is increasingly becoming so.[14] There’s an increasing number of libertarians and an increasing number of those that get drawn to anarchy. What’s the old joke? “What’s the difference between a minarchist and an anarchist? About six months.” To be against aggression, you have to be against all aggression: private aggression, that is, crime, and public aggression, or institutional aggression, which is what the state always does.

Libertarianism is radical. It’s not incremental. There is nothing wrong with being incremental, but libertarianism is really a radical doctrine. And it’s also unique and radical and different from, and superior to, the Left and the Right. We have to recognize that. We’re not “of the Left.” We’re not “of the Right.”

Also, libertarianism is now increasingly, overwhelmingly, anti-intellectual property.[15] Intellectual property, patent and copyright law, and related laws like trademark and trade secret used to be the boring province of specialists and policy wonks, but with the advent of the internet and the increase of global trade and high tech, the so-called “abuses” of patent and copyright law have become evident to all of us.

We have to realize that intellectual property is one of the top five or six horrible things the state does to society. After war, public education, the drug war, central banking, taxation—intellectual property is up there.[16] It’s one of the worst things that helps support the police state and suppress individual liberties and reduce innovation and impose hundreds of billions of dollars of cost on the globe every year.[17] This kind of view upsets a lot of the old guard libertarians, Objectivists and minarchists and utilitarians and “Constitutionalists,” who still attempt to defend IP … but modern libertarians, left libertarians, tech libertarians, young people, people who actually “use the Internet”—they all know that there’s something wrong with a law that prevents you from learning and sharing in what we call, in the free market, “competition.” There’s nothing wrong with competition!

Another thing we’ve learned in the last fifty years, due to the work of writers like Bruno Leoni, Hayek, others: legislation is not the way to make law. Law has to arise from custom, from contract, from agreement, from decentralized processes like the common law or arbitration.[18]

Also, I think we’ve learned, due to the work primarily of Hans-Hermann Hoppe and others … we’ve had to recognize that democracy was not a step on the road to progress towards a libertarian society. Moving from monarchies in the ancient regimes to democracy might have been better in some ways, but it wasn’t unambiguously better, and it’s definitely not a simulation of a libertarian or a liberal society.[19]

And along those lines I think we also have to recognize that we need to quit thinking of America as some kind of proto-libertarian paradise back in the day of the Founders. The Constitution is not libertarian. It was a centralizing document. It was a power grab. It failed… or rather, it succeeded in what it was really meant to do, which is to centralize power in the hands of the federal government.[20] So we need to wipe these illusions from our eyes about the American Founders being proto-libertarians. They were not. The Constitution is not libertarian. America was not a libertarian country early on. There’s any number of victim classes you could ask, and they would probably agree with this.

Another thing that has become clear, just in recent years, has been the libertarian approach to peace and cooperation as informing the issueof children. That is, there has been a reexamination of how we rear our children, how we discipline children and how we educate children. Thus we have the rise of the anti-spanking and the “peaceful parenting” movement. And we have an increasing resort to homeschooling and even so-called unschooling. So these are all things that we are starting to learn.[21]

The two most important things I think that have become clear—and some of these were known to earlier thinkers before—number one is the importance of a solid understanding of economics to inform your case. And I think that means Austrian Economics.[22] You have to be economically literate. And the rise in the popularity of Austrian Economics has been stunning to see.[23] There is a reason for that. You don’t see the Chicago school or the Coasean school being passionately argued for by most libertarians now.

Finally, the most important point, it has become clear, and we need to return to this and emphasize this, libertarianism is essentially about property rights. That’s really what it’s all about.[24] Liberty is a consequence of property rights. It’s what you can do when your property rights are respected.

ISSUES THAT DIVIDE OR CONFUSE

Now there are still some issues that divide or confuse us. There is this left vs. right debate.[25] Are we of the left? Or are we of the right? There is the thick vs. thin debate. Should we be thick libertarians or thin libertarians?

There’s the debate whether we should be activists or whether we should be theorists or whether we should just mind our own business and not work for the state.[26]

There are esoteric issues like voluntary slavery. Should I be able to sign a contract and sell my kidneys, or myself? This is the alienability issue.[27]

There is sometimes debate about whether you should be responsible for the actions of others. I have had people tell me that Adolf Hitler really never pulled the trigger, so he really didn’t commit murder.[28] Only the henchmen are guilty. Truman didn’t really drop the bomb on Japan. A mafia boss doesn’t actually pull the trigger. His hit man does. So you have this kind of confusion, I would say.

And on the topic of intellectual property, even though libertarians are largely moving in our direction on this—there is still widespread confusion among people about this issue.

And there is also still confusion about the basis and the nature of property rights; about utilitarianism or consequentialism vs. deontological or natural rights thinking vs. intuitionism vs. Popperian conjecturalism.[29]

DANGER OF UNCLEAR LANGUAGE AND METAPHORS

Now one reason for this confusion is the lack of careful attention to speaking clearly, thinking clearly, and being aware of the danger of the use of metaphors.[30] When libertarianism arose in the middle of the last century, it was so much superior to the prevailing thought that we could speak in sloppy terms. It was still better, even with imprecise language. After all, our competitors also employed, and still employ, vague and nonrigorous terms. But even though the libertarian approach seems obviously superior to statist alternatives, even in its early days, as it gets applied to more and more issues, harder issues arise and the older ways of thinking and reasoning don’t always suffice. We need to revisit our foundations and we need to think more carefully about this.

Let me give some examples of metaphors or uncareful use of terms, things that can lead to equivocation by our opponents, things that can lead to confusion when we try to analyze difficult issues.

So one is, for example, most libertarians have always been against what we call “public schools.” And in recent years, maybe in the last decade or two, I’ve heard libertarians say, they’ve used the term “government schools,” because they want to make clear, “I’m against government schools.” They’re trying to call to the attention of the proponents of “public” schools that they’re really in favor of the government being in charge of educating people.

Well, even the word “government,” in my view, is a dangerous word to use. I use it from time to time but I increasingly try to use the word “state” to make it clear that I’m against the state because the state has a definition. It’s a monopoly in a geographic area over the provision of law, justice, and force.[31] The word government has ambiguous meanings. And your opponent—either a minarchist, which we can call a mini-statist, or a regular statist—by the word government, they mean the governing institutions in society. And they also use it as an equivalent to the state because they believe the state is necessary for these governing institutions. So they are smuggling in their presuppositions, a type of question-begging.

So if you say, as an anarchist, I’m against the government (meaning: against the state), they will take you to mean you’re against law and order. So if they ask you, “Well, do you believe in law?”

You say, “Yes.”
Then they say, “Well, then you believe in government.”
And I say, “Well, I believe in government as law and order.”
And then they say, “Well, then you must believe in the state.”

You see there’s that trick there. So we have to stay focused on being opposed to the state, defined in a certain way.

Here’s another one. It’s the use of the word aggression in sloppy ways. Some libertarians, or some of our opponents, will use it just to mean force. So they’ll say, “Well even you guys aren’t against aggression. You believe in force to defend yourself.”

Well, aggression is the initiation of force. And then you see other sloppy terminology, like I’m against “the initiation of aggression.” Well, that’s saying I’m against the initiation of the initiation of force. It’s just not clear terminology.

Another one, it’s just a little issue, is the word “coercion.” Coercion technically means the use of the threat of force to compel someone to do something. Now just like force or violence, which is sometimes justified if it’s used defensively, coercion can be justified sometimes too. If I coerce a guy trying to rob me, there’s nothing wrong with that. So we should quit using the word coercion as a synonym for aggression.[32] And we should never refer to defensive force as aggression.

There is also the labor theory of property and its close cousin, the labor theory of value.[33] This is what I think the fundamental mistake in a lot of libertarian thinking is, which is what led to intellectual property, and it also led to communism and the deaths of tens of millions of people in the 20th century.[34] It all started with John Locke who was responding to Filmer and understandably used this labor metaphor. But we have to stop thinking of labor as a special thing (it’s just a type of action), and we have to get rid of this confused idea that we own our labor. You don’t own your labor. Labor is what you do with something you own: your body. (You don’t own your “self” by the way. That’s another vague term. You own your body.)[35]

Property rights are rights to control scarce, or conflictable, resources in the world. These are the only things that can be conflicted over. Your body is an example, and other things in the world are examples. Property rules always specify the owner of that thing. Owning your body is sufficient to allow you to act as you please, but it doesn’t mean you “own your actions.” It doesn’t mean you “own your labor.” If you start thinking this way, you’re going to get to intellectual property. This is what results. I own my labor. I own what I mix it with. I own my labor. I own whatever it creates that “has” “value.” But there are no property rights in value, as Hans-Hermann Hoppe has pointed out. I could elaborate, but I would run out of time.[36]

Another issue is the word “contract.” Libertarians are confused by contract. Rothbard and Bill Evers have written revolutionary work on this topic, viewing contract as the exercise of property rights in resources that are owned. It is not an “enforceable promise.” That way of thinking leads also to confused conclusions like debtor’s prison which leads to the idea of voluntary slavery, etc.[37]

Another one is the word “fraud.”[38] Libertarians throw this word, fraud, around a lot, especially advocates of intellectual property; also the word plagiarism. They totally confuse fraud, contract, plagiarism, property rights, labor theory of value, and patent and copyright law.[39] They mix them together into a big gumbo of confusion. And, you know, they’ll imply that if you’re against patent law then you’re in favor of fraud or you’re in favor of dishonesty or you’re not in favor of giving someone attribution for their ideas. These are all confused, and they’re all disingenuous usually, or they’re said in total ignorance of what these terms mean and how the law really works and what property rights really are.

There’s another confusion, which is the common paired set of expressions which everyone takes for granted. There are two paired notions. “If you own something, well, you can sell it”—which is wrong actually. “And if you sell something, that must mean you had to own it to sell it.” That’s also wrong.[40] Those ideas lead to the idea of voluntary slavery on the one hand[41] and the idea of intellectual property on the other. And I’ve taken those apart in other contexts as well. I can revisit them at some point when I have more time.

Now another source of confusion is the idea about where property rights come from and the idea that just because we believe that the first user of an unowned resource, like Locke’s idea of original appropriation or homesteading—just because we believe he is the proper owner of that resource, that because there’s been this “original sin” or this “taint” of property titles throughout human history, because we can rarely trace our title to a resource back to the original owner, back to Adam, let’s say, then that means our entire theory of property rights is flawed. And then what’s the next step? Then we’re going to say, well, we are going to have to have redistribution someday. The current allocation of resources, the property rights that the rich have, really came from conquests 700 years ago. So no one is really entitled to their wealth. “You didn’t build that,” as Obama might say. And that when we have a libertarian revolution, a left-libertarian revolution, we need to redistribute these titles and everyone is going to be equal. Egalitarianism is driving these people.[42]

So whenever I hear someone say that there’s something wrong with your theory of property, I hold on to my wallet, because I know they’re coming after it. The people that condemn materialism and rich people and money always want your money. So you have to be very wary of these people.[43]

Now there’s another related problem which afflicts a lot of quasi-left libertarians, and that is this idea that if you are in favor of property rights, you’re really in favor of “aggression.” Now, how do they come up with this idea? Basically, they don’t believe in ownership. They believe that if you are using a resource that you have the right to use it in an undisturbed fashion, but as soon as you set it down and walk away, it’s up for grabs. And if you maintain the right to use force to retrieve your resource, or to get damages from them for damaging or using your property, you’re committing aggression.[44] This is obviously confused and unlibertarian.

MOVING FORWARD

So this is the fundamental problem that we need to focus on here. We need to understand that aggression is not the fundamental concept of libertarianism. Aggression is a shorthand description of our view of property rights. Every political philosophy, every person on the planet, has an implicit or explicit view of property rights. Because property rights arise only because we live in a world of scarcity, a world of scarce resources, which means a world where conflict is possible.[45] If you understand Mises’s praxeology and his analysis of human action and how human action is the purposeful employment of scarce means—things that are causally efficacious in the world to achieve your end, guided by your knowledge (which is why there are no property rights in ideas)[46]—then you’ll understand that property rights are always the right to control a given resource. It’s about that.[47]

Aggression is just a shorthand for our particular view of how property should be assigned.[48] Communists, socialists, liberals, environmentalists all believe in a certain allocation of property rights. They believe the state should own the property or maybe the poor people should own the property. So the question is what makes libertarianism unique? It is our particular property allocation scheme.[49]

And I will conclude by just summarizing the way I think we need to view the libertarian paradigm and how, if you think about it consistently, it will answer all the questions I just went through that are confusing to people. That is this: the rule of libertarianism is very simple. It is that when two or more people—because if you only have only one person, then there’s no dispute, there’s no problem to be solved; there is no social problem—when two or more people both want to use a given resource, when there is a possible dispute or conflict, the question is simply, for the resource in question: which of those two or more people has the better claim to the resource?

We answer that question by resorting to some very simple and common sense and almost undeniably true rules.[50] In the case of a person’s body, which is a resource over which there can be dispute, the rule is self-ownership, or self-body-ownership: each person is the presumptive owner of his own body. We oppose slavery, which is “other-ownership” and instead favor self-ownership. Controversial, I know.

And as for previously-unowned, external resources, the types of things that can serve as scarce means of action, there are three simple rules. The first one is: who had it first? Or as between those two, who had it first as far as we know? You don’t have to trace back to Adam. You can trace it back to a common ancestor as the law has it.[51] This is original appropriation, or homesteading. This has to be the basic property allocation rule, because for people to survive, they must use resources, and there must be a first user. His use has to be rightful if we are to have ownership and property rights as a concept distinct from mere possession.

Second: was there a consensual transfer from an owner to someone else? That’s contract, or contractual title transfer.

And third: did one person harm the other, commit a tort or a crime, so that he owes compensation or rectification or restitution to the other guy, leading to a transfer of money or some resource from one guy to the other.

So if you look at those three principles, that will tell you who owns the resource in question. If I had it first, I am the owner—unless I gave it to someone else, and then they own it. They have a better claim than me. Every other philosophy, other than libertarianism, violates one of those three rules. They ultimately believe that someone has the right to a resource even though they didn’t obtain it by contract, even though they weren’t harmed by the previous owner, and even though they may have never found the resource or started using it and put it to productive use.

Basically every philosophy, other than libertarianism, believes either in a lawless world, a world of might makes right—or in some form of slavery: owning the products of other people’s efforts or owning their bodies.[52] That is why libertarianism is superior. And if we focus on property rights and this foundational view of looking at things, it helps us to move forward and improve the libertarian project. Thank you.

[Endnotes
some italics missing]

[*] My talk was originally billed as “Libertarianism After Fifty Years: A Reassessment and Reappraisal,” NYC LibertyFest, Brooklyn, NY (October 11, 2014), but I changed the subtitle before speaking. The speech is available at “KOL152 | NYC LibertyFest: ‘Libertarianism After Fifty Years: What Have We Learned?’”, Kinsella on Liberty Podcast (Oct. 12, 2014); the transcript was posted as “Libertarianism After Fifty Years: What Have We Learned? (transcript),” StephanKinsella.com (Oct. 12, 2014). I have updated and reworked it for this chapter.

[1] This section did not appear in my original talk for lack of time. It is an expanded version of my introductory remarks, and was included in a long footnote in the transcript posted on my site. I have adapted this section from Kinsella, “Foreword,” in Chase Rachels, A Spontaneous Order: The Capitalist Case For A Stateless Society (2015; https://archive.org/details/ASpontaneousOrder0). For another interesting retrospective, see Mark Thornton, “Libertarianism: A Fifty-Year Personal Retrospective,” J. Libertarian Stud. 24, no. 2 (2020; https://mises.org/library/libertarianism-fifty-year-personal-retrospective): 445–60.

[2] See Brian Doherty, Radicals for Capitalism: A Freewheeling History of the Modern American Libertarian Movement (New York: PublicAffairs, 2008); and David Boaz, ed., The Libertarian Reader: Classic & Contemporary Writings from Lao Tzu to Milton Friedman (Simon & Schuster, 2015).

[3] See Boaz, The Libertarian Reader.

[4] See Doherty, Radicals for Capitalism, chap. 3.

[5] Jerome Tuccille, It Usually Begins with Ayn Rand (New York: Stein and Day, 1971).

[6] John P. McCaskey, “New Libertarians: New Promoters of a Welfare State,” JohnMcCaskey.com (April 14, 2014; https://perma.cc/259E-K2AB). See also Wendy McElroy, “Murray N. Rothbard: Mr. Libertarian,” LewRockwell.com (July 6, 2000; https://perma.cc/H7P2-P2YD). Writes Hoppe in the Foreword to this book, “through his work Rothbard became the founder of the modern libertarian movement.”

[7] See various works listed in Kinsella, “The Greatest Libertarian Books,” StephanKinsella.com (Aug. 7, 2006) and in Kinsella, “Foreword,” including works by the Tannehills, Hospers, David Friedman, Henri Lepage, and many others.

Regarding the proliferation of books presenting or re-stating libertarian thought in the last couple decades, recall this comment by scholar A.H.J. Greenidge, in his “Historical Introduction” to Gaius’s Institutes of Roman Law: “The Institutes of Gaius are a product of this activity; for it is necessary that a great deal of detailed and special work shall be done in a science before a good handbook on the subject can be written for the use of students.” A.H.J. Greenidge, “Historical Introduction,” in Gaius, Institutes of Roman Law, with a translation and commentary by Edward Poste, 4th ed., revised and enlarged by E.A. Whittuck (Oxford: 1904; https://oll.libertyfund.org/title/gaius-institutes-of-roman-law), p. li (§ 20; emphasis added). This important work by Gaius was mostly lost until found in nearlycomplete form in a palimpsest in Verona in 1816. (See Wikipedia entry, “Institutes (Gaius),” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutes_(Gaius)). The “activity” referred to by Greenidge above is described in the preceding section thusly:

The literary activity in the domain of law, during the period which intervened between the accession of Augustus and the time of Gaius, was of the most varied character. Religious law (Jus Pontificlum) attracted the attention of Capito. Labeo wrote on the Twelve Tables. The Praetor’s Edict was the subject of studies by Labeo, Masurius Sabinus, Pedius and Pomponius. The Edict of the Curule Aediles was commented on by Caelius Sabinus. Salvius Julianus, besides his redaction of the Edicts, produced a work known as Digesta, which perhaps assumed the form of detailed explanations of points of law systematically arranged. Comprehensive works on the Civil Law were furnished by Masurius Sabinus and Caius Cassius Longinus. Other jurists produced monographs on special branches of law, as the younger Nerva on Usucapion, Pedms on Stipulations, Pomponius on Fideicommissa. Some lawyers wrote commentaries on the works of their predecessors. It was thus that Aristo dealt with Labeo, and Pomponins with Sabinus. Other works took the form of Epistolae, which furnished opinions on special cases which had been submitted to their author, and collections of Problems (Quaestiones). Nor was history neglected. There must have been much of it in Labeo’s commentary on the Twelve Tables; and Pomponius wrote a Handbook (Enehiridion), which contained a sketch of the legal history of Rome from the earliest times.

Greenidge, “Historical Introduction,” § 19, pp. l–li.

On the issue of the preservation and transmission of bodies of knowledge, such as legal systems, see also Alan Watson: “The Importance of ‘Nutshells,’” Am. J. Comp. L. 42, no. 1 (Winter 1994; https://digitalcommons.law.uga.edu/fac_artchop/668): 1–23.

[8] Kinsella, “The Trouble with Libertarian Activism,” LewRockwell.com (Jan. 26, 2006; https://archive.lewrockwell.com/kinsella/kinsella19.html).

[9] For a libertarian argument against voting, see Wendy McElroy, “Why I Would Not Vote Against Hitler,” Liberty 9, no. 5 (May 1996; https://perma.cc/5NE3-BWES): 46–47.

[10] That said, since this speech, I have joined the LP. See Kinsella, “Aggression and Property Rights Plank in the Libertarian Party Platform,” StephanKinsella.com (May 30, 2022).

[11] Kinsella, “Why I’m a Libertarian–or, Why Libertarianism is Beautiful,” Mises Economics Blog (Dec. 12, 2006).

[12] Kinsella, “The Murdering, Thieving, Enslaving, Unlibertarian Continental Army,” LewRockwell.com (July 3, 2009).

[13] See Kinsella, “When Did the Trouble Start?”, LewRockwell.com (Sep. 5, 2003); idem, “Happy We-Should-Restore-the-Monarchy-and-Rejoin-Britain Day!”, Mises Economics Blog (July 2, 2009).

[14] Kinsella, “The Nature of the State and Why Libertarians Hate It,” StephanKinsella.com (May 3, 2010).

[15] See “Law and Intellectual Property in a Stateless Society” (ch. 14), at n.5; “Against Intellectual Property After Twenty Years: Looking Back and Looking Forward” (ch. 15), at n.21.

[16] Kinsella, “Where does IP Rank Among the Worst State Laws?”, C4SIF Blog (Jan. 20, 2012).

[17] Kinsella, “Copyright and Free Trade; Patents and Censorship,” C4SIF Blog (Feb. 29, 2012); Kinsella, “Death by Copyright-IP Fascist Police State Acronym,” C4SIF Blog (Jan. 30, 2012); “SOPA is the Symptom, Copyright is the Disease: The SOPA Wakeup Call to Abolish Copyright,” The Libertarian Standard (Jan 24, 2012); idem, “Masnick on the Horrible PROTECT IP Act: The Coming IPolice State,” C4SIF Blog (June 2, 2012); idem, “Copyright and the End of Internet Freedom,” C4SIF Blog (May 10, 2011); idem, “Copyright Censorship versus Free Speech and Human Rights; Excessive Fines and the Eighth Amendment,” C4SIF Blog (Sep. 6, 2011); idem, “The Overwhelming Empirical Case Against Patent and Copyright,” C4SIF Blog (Oct. 23, 2012); idem, “Yet Another Study Finds Patents Do Not Encourage Innovation,” Mises Economics Blog (July 2, 2009); idem, “Costs of the Patent System Revisited,” Mises Economics Blog (Sep. 29, 2010).

[18] See “Legislation and the Discovery of Law in a Free Society” (ch. 13).

[19] See Hans-Hermann Hoppe, Democracy: The God That Failed (New Brunswick: Transaction, 2001; www.hanshoppe.com/democracy). As Hoppe notes in the Introduction: “although aware of the economic and ethical deficiencies of democracy, both Mises and Rothbard had a soft spot for democracy and tended to view the transition from monarchy to democracy as progress.”

[20] Kinsella, “On Constitutional Sentimentalism,” StephanKinsella.com (Jan. 16, 2011); idem, “Black Armbands for ‘Constitution Day,’” The Libertarian Standard (Sept. 17, 2010); idem, “The Bad Bill of Rights,” LewRockwell.com (Dec. 17, 2004; www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/the-bad-bill-of-rights); idem, “Goodbye 1776, 1789, Tom,” StephanKinsella.com(June 29, 2009); idem, “Rockwell on Hoppe on the Constitution as Expansion of Government Power,” StephanKinsella.com (Aug. 3, 2009); idem, “Richman on the 4th of July and American Independence,” StephanKinsella.com (July 2, 2009); idem, “The Murdering, Thieving, Enslaving, Unlibertarian Continental Army”; idem, “Napolitano on Health-Care Reform and the Constitution: Is the Commerce Clause Really Limited?”, StephanKinsella.com (Sep. 17, 2009); idem, “Was the American Revolution Really about Taxes?”, The Libertarian Standard (April 14, 2010); idem, “Bill Marina (R.I.P.) on American Imperialism from the Beginning,” StephanKinsella.com (July 8, 2009); idem, “Happy We-Should-Restore-the-Monarchy-and-Rejoin-Britain Day!”; idem, “Revising the American Revolution,” StephanKinsella.com (July 6, 2009); idem, “The Declaration and Conscription,” StephanKinsella.com (July 6, 2009); idem, “Untold Truths about the American Revolution,” StephanKinsella.com (July 7, 2009); idem, “Jeff Hummel’s ‘The Constitution as a Counter-Revolution,’” StephanKinsella.com (July 1, 2009).

[21] See Kinsella, “Montessori, Peace, and Libertarianism,” LewRockwell.com (April 28, 2011); idem, “KOL059 | Libertarian Parenting—Freedomain Radio with Stefan Molyneux (2010),” Kinsella on Liberty Podcast (May 22, 2013); idem, “Stefan Molyneux’s ‘Libertarian Parenting’ Series,” The Libertarian Standard (July 21, 2010); idem, “Montessori and ‘Unschooling,’” StephanKinsella.com (Oct. 16, 2010).

[22] Kinsella, “Afterword,” in Hans-Hermann Hoppe, in The Great Fiction: Property, Economy, Society, and the Politics of Decline, Second Expanded Edition (Auburn, Ala.: Mises Institute, 2021; www.hanshoppe.com/tgf); Kinsella, “Foreword,” in Hans-Hermann Hoppe, A Theory of Socialism and Capitalism: Economics, Politics, and Ethics (Auburn, Ala.: Mises Institute, 2010 [1989]; www.hanshoppe.com/tsc).

[23] For a recent example, the LP’s Mises Caucus (https://lpmisescaucus.com) completely took over the US Libertarian Party at the 2022 convention. See Brian Doherty, “Mises Caucus Takes Control of Libertarian Party,” Reason.com (May 29, 2022; https://perma.cc/US78-Y24C); Zach Weissmueller, Nick Gillespie & Danielle Thompson, “Inside the Mises Caucus Takeover of the Libertarian Party,” Reason.com (June 15, 2022; https://perma.cc/QCK5-3HND). See also Kinsella, “Aggression and Property Rights Plank in the Libertarian Party Platform,” StephanKinsella.com (May 30, 2022).

[24] Murray N. Rothbard, “‘Human Rights’ as Property Rights,” in The Ethics of Liberty (New York: New York University Press, 1998; http://mises.org/rothbard/ethics/fifteen.asp); Hoppe, A Theory of Socialism and Capitalism, chaps. 1–2 et pass.

[25] Kinsella, “The Limits of Libertarianism?: A Dissenting View,” StephanKinsella.com (April 20, 2014)

[26] Kinsella, “The Trouble with Libertarian Activism.”

[27] See “A Libertarian Theory of Contract: Title Transfer, Binding Promises, and Inalienability” (ch. 9); “Selling Does Not Imply Ownership, and Vice-Versa: A Dissection” (ch. 11); and Kinsella, “KOL004 | Interview with Walter Block on Voluntary Slavery and Inalienability,” Kinsella on Liberty Podcast (Jan. 27, 2013).

[28] See “Causation and Aggression” (ch. 8), at n.31 et pass; also Kinsella, “KOL149 | IP And Beyond With Stephan Kinsella—Non-Aggression Podcast,” Kinsella on Liberty Podcast (Aug. 30, 2014).

[29] Hoppe’s approach is not a standard natural rights argument, but he grants that it could be interpreted “as falling in a ‘rightly conceived’ natural rights tradition….” See Hoppe, A Theory of Socialism and Capitalism, pp. 156–57, n.118, quoted in “Dialogical Arguments for Libertarian Rights” (ch. 6), n.14. For Randy Barnett’s argument distinguishing consequentialism from utilitarianism, and on Jan Lester’s Popperian “conjecturalism,” see references in “Dialogical Arguments for Libertarian Rights” (ch. 6), n.3.

[30] See discussion and references at “Selling Does Not Imply Ownership, and Vice-Versa: A Dissection” (ch. 11), notes 1 and 33; “Against Intellectual Property After Twenty Years” (ch. 15), Part IV.D and n.83; “On Libertarian Legal Theory, Self-Ownership and Drug Laws” (ch. 23), n.29 et pass. See also Kinsella, “On the Danger of Metaphors in Scientific Discourse,” StephanKinsella.com (June 12, 2011); idem, “Objectivist Law Prof Mossoff on Copyright; or, the Misuse of Labor, Value, and Creation Metaphors,” Mises Economics Blog (Jan. 3, 2008); idem, “KOL044 | ‘Correcting some Common Libertarian Misconceptions’ (PFS 2011),” Kinsella on Liberty Podcast (May 2, 2013); idem, “KOL045 | ‘Libertarian Controversies Lecture 1’ (Mises Academy, 2011),” Kinsella on Liberty Podcast (May 2, 2013); idem, “KOL118 | Tom Woods Show: Against Fuzzy Thinking,” Kinsella on Liberty Podcast (March 31, 2014).

[31] Writes Hoppe:

Let me begin with the definition of a state. What must an agent be able to do to qualify as a state? This agent must be able to insist that all conflicts among the inhabitants of a given territory be brought to him for ultimate decision-making or be subject to his final review. In particular, this agent must be able to insist that all conflicts involving himself be adjudicated by him or his agent. And implied in the power to exclude all others from acting as ultimate judge, as the second defining characteristic of a state, is the agent’s power to tax: to unilaterally determine the price that justice seekers must pay for his services.

Based on this definition of a state, it is easy to understand why a desire to control a state might exist. For whoever is a monopolist of final arbitration within a given territory can make laws. And he who can legislate can also tax. Surely, this is an enviable position.

Hans-Hermann Hoppe, “Reflections on the Origin and the Stability of the State,” LewRockwell.com (June 23, 2008; https://archive.lewrockwell.com/hoppe/hoppe18.html), quoted in in Kinsella, “The Nature of the State and Why Libertarians Hate It,” StephanKinsella.com (May 3, 2010). Hoppe’s article was based on his 2008 speech, available at Hoppe, “PFP020 | Hans-Hermann Hoppe, Reflections on the Origin of the State (PFS 2008),” Property and Freedom Podcast (Dec. 24, 2021; https://propertyandfreedom.org/pfp).

[32] See Kinsella, “The Problem with ‘Coercion,’” StephanKinsella.com (Aug. 7, 2009); also “Legislation and the Discovery of Law in a Free Society” (ch. 13), n.2.

[33] See “Against Intellectual Property After Twenty Years” (ch. 15), Part IV.D.

[34] Kinsella, “KOL037 | Locke’s Big Mistake: How the Labor Theory of Property Ruined Political Theory,” Kinsella on Liberty Podcast (March 28, 2013); “Against Intellectual Property After Twenty Years” (ch. 15), Part IV.C, and other references in notes 51 & 57 et pass.

[35] See “What Libertarianism Is” (ch. 2) and “How We Come to Own Ourselves” (ch. 4). But admittedly, it is difficult to avoid using these terms, as I have indicated elsewhere in this book. Though it might be better to refer to the state instead of government; to an owned resource in which someone has a property right, rather than to calling the resource “property”; to aggression instead of coercion, it is sometimes more convenient to use more conventional or colloquial terms to avoid tedium. I don’t even like referring to patent, copyright, trademark, trade secret as “intellectual property” rights, but if one is to communicate with normies, sometimes one has to accept conventional terminology, even if it is loaded or ambiguous.

[36] Kinsella, “Hoppe on Property Rights in Physical Integrity vs Value,” StephanKinsella.com (June 12, 2011); “On Libertarian Legal Theory, Self-Ownership and Drug Laws” (ch. 23), n.7 et pass. As Justice Holmes recognized in passing in a dissent in a case establishing a quasi-property right in the product of the sweat of the brow, or the fruits of one’s labor: “Property, a creation of law, does not arise from value, although exchangeable—a matter of fact.” International News Service v. Associated Press, 248 U.S. 215, 246 (1918; https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/248/215/).

[37] “A Libertarian Theory of Contract” (ch. 9).

[38] See “A Libertarian Theory of Contract” (ch. 9), Part III.E.

[39] See Kinsella, “KOL207 | Patent, Copyright, and Trademark Are Not About Plagiarism, Theft, Fraud, or Contract,” Kinsella on Liberty Podcast (Feb. 21, 2016); idem, “If you oppose IP you support plagiarism; copying others is fraud or contract breach,” in “Hello! You’ve Been Referred Here Because You’re Wrong About Intellectual Property” C4SIF (2023); Kinsella, “Common Misconceptions about Plagiarism and Patents: A Call for an Independent Inventor Defense,” Mises Economics Blog (Nov. 21, 2009).

[40] See “Selling Does Not Imply Ownership, and Vice-Versa: A Dissection” (ch. 11).

[41] See “Inalienability and Punishment: A Reply to George Smith” (ch. 10) and “A Libertarian Theory of Contract” (ch. 9).

[42] See related discussion in “What Libertarianism Is” (ch. 2), at n.36 and “Selling Does Not Imply Ownership, and Vice-Versa: A Dissection” (ch. 11), at n.12; also Hans-Hermann Hoppe, “A Realistic Libertarianism,” LewRockwell.com (Sept. 30, 2013; www.hanshoppe.com/2014/10/a-realistic-libertarianism), discussed in “On Libertarian Legal Theory, Self-Ownership and Drug Laws” (ch. 23), n.15.

[43] See “On Libertarian Legal Theory, Self-Ownership and Drug Laws” (ch. 23), at n.14.

[44] This is also similar to the views of some mutualists, who in effect basically conflate possession with ownership, since “absentee” owners lose title to squatters, tenants, employees, and so on. See “What Libertarianism Is” (ch. 2), n.31; also “Law and Intellectual Property in a Stateless Society” (ch. 14), n.38.

[45] See “What Libertarianism Is” (ch. 2), the section “Libertarian Property Rights”; “Selling Does Not Imply Ownership, and Vice-Versa: A Dissection” (ch. 11), at n.6 et pass.; “On Libertarian Legal Theory, Self-Ownership and Drug Laws” (ch. 23), at n.16 et pass. See also Hans-Hermann Hoppe, “Of Common, Public, and Private Property and the Rationale for Total Privatization,” in Hoppe, The Great Fiction; Hoppe, “A Realistic Libertarianism.”

[46] See “Law and Intellectual Property in a Stateless Society” (ch. 14), Part III.D; and “Against Intellectual Property After Twenty Years” (ch. 15), Part IV.E.

[47] “What Libertarianism Is” (ch. 2); also “On Libertarian Legal Theory, Self-Ownership and Drug Laws” (ch. 23), text at notes 6–7 and 18–23 et pass.

[48] See “What Libertarianism Is” (ch. 2), n.4.

[49] See ibid.

[50] See ibid., the section “Libertarian Property Rights.” See also “How We Come to Own Ourselves” (ch. 4) and “Goods, Scarce and Nonscarce” (ch. 18); as well as Hoppe’s summary of these basic rules in “A Realistic Libertarianism” and in idem, “Of Common, Public, and Private Property and the Rationale for Total Privatization,” pp. 85–87. See also Kinsella, “How To Think About Property (2019),” StephanKinsella.com (April 25, 2021).

[51] See the discussion of the civil law’s solution of tracing title back to a “common author” (meaning ancestor in title) at “What Libertarianism Is” (ch. 2), at n.33 and “Law and Intellectual Property in a Stateless Society” (ch. 14), at n.41.

[52] See “What Libertarianism Is” (ch. 2).

 

[ARTICLES/NOTES BASED ON TRANSCRIPT]

Libertarianism After Fifty Years: What Have We Learned?

Stephan Kinsella
NYC LibertyFest, Brooklyn, NY
October 11, 2014

Introduction

Hello. I’m glad to be here. Thank you to Ian and Mike for the invitation. I do have my eleven year old son with me. It’s the second or third time he’s seen me speak. He’s been to Auburn with me. I went to NYC Comic Con with him on Thursday. So turnabout’s fair play although it was fun. Comic Con was great.

I have fifteen minutes. My topic is “Libertarianism After Fifty Years – What Have We Learned”? If I get cut off I will continue this in a private podcast, if I run out of time. You can find more information, if I run out of time, because this is a big topic for fifteen minutes.

This is my own view of libertarianism. It might not be shared by everyone here. But what I would like to talk about is—what is the libertarian movement? How old is it? Where did we come from?

In my view, the libertarian movement is about fifty years old—the modern libertarian movement. I think we can date it, you know, the glimmers of the movement started with Ayn Rand and Isabel Patterson and Rose Wilder Lane with their books in 1943. Of course, there are precursors to the libertarianism in the Enlightenment and classical liberal thought. There are other writers, Leonard Read, Milton Friedman. But I think we can really date the dawn of the modern libertarian movement to 1957 with the publication of Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. And then the works of Rothbard, more importantly, with Man, Economy and State in 1962. 9

So the movement is about 55, 45 years old. It’s a relatively young movement as far as ideologies go and political philosophies go. We still have our disagreements over certain controversies like abortion and other issues. But a lot of progress has been made in the last fifty years. We’ve had a lot of development, partly because of incessant libertarian internal debate, criticism by outsiders, criticism by minarchists, criticism by insiders. But at the fifty year stage, I do think it is a good time to step back and reflect and think what have we learned over the last fifty years. How we could use this going forward to further refine and develop our ideas. [continue reading…]

  1. See Rothbard’s obituary of Leonard Read in his journal Libertarian Forum, Vol. 17.5-6, May-June 1983; the PDF and HTML versions of the journal are apparently down now, but .mobi and epub versions are available here. []
  2. Zwolinski seems to be unsure whether he is a libertarian or just a classical liberal, despite having published articles or books on libertarianism. See, e.g., Aaron Powell and Trevor Burris, “Bleeding Heart Libertarianism: A Retrospective (with Matt Zwolinski),” Free Thoughts Podcast, Libertarianism.org (June 26, 2020; Youtube), at 30:20. But see Zwolinski and Tomasi, “Introduction,” in The Individualists, p. 8: “We both have long identified ourselves as libertarians.” []
  3.  Barbara Branden, “Foreword: The Dawn of Objectivism,” in Nathaniel Branden, The Vision of Ayn Rand: The Basic Principles of Objectivism (2011), quoting Objectively Speaking: Ayn Rand Interviewed, edited by Marlene Podriske and Peter Schwartz, p. 239. []
  4. The Limits of Armchair Theorizing: The case of Threats; also Libertarian Answer Man: Corporations, Trusts, HOAs, and Private Law Codes in a Private Law SocietyKOL359 | State Constitutions vs. the Libertarian Private Law Code (PFS 2021)KOL345 | Kinsella’s Libertarian “Constitution” or: State Constitutions vs. the Libertarian Private Law Code (PorcFest 2021). []
  5. On the distinction between abstract legal rights and more concrete rules that serve as guides to action, see “Legislation and the Discovery of Law in a Free Society” and Kinsella, “Knowledge, Calculation, Conflict, and Law,” in LFFS, the subsection “Abstract Rights and Legal Precepts” and the section “The Third-Order Problem of Knowledge and the Common Law,” text at n. 24 et seq. []
  6. Areas That Need Development from Libertarian Thinkers. []
  7.  Activism, Achieving a Free Society, and Writing for the Remnant. []
  8. See Stephan Kinsella, “Legislation and the Discovery of Law in a Free Society,” in Legal Foundations of a Free Society [LFFS] (Houston, Texas: Papinian Press, 2023), Part V.B; also Roman Law and Hypothetical Cases. For an example of a concise statement of the basic principles of libertarian justice, see Aggression and Property Rights Plank in the Libertarian Party Platform. []
  9. The following is an excerpt I wrote to a Foreword for a forthcoming libertarian book:

    Modern libertarian theory is only about five decades old. The ideas that have influenced our greatest thinkers can be traced back centuries, of course,[1] to luminaries such as Hugo Grotius, John Locke, Thomas Paine, Herbert Spencer, David Hume, and John Stuart Mill, and to more recent and largely even more radical thinkers such as Gustave de Molinari, Benjamin Tucker, Lysander Spooner, Bertrand de Jouvenal, Franz Oppenheimer, and Albert Jay Nock.[2]

    The beginnings of the modern movement can be detected in the works of the “three furies of libertarianism,” as Brian Doherty calls them: Rose Wilder Lane, Ayn Rand, and Isabel Patterson, whose respective books The Discovery of Freedom, The Fountainhead, and The God of the Machine were all published, rather remarkably, in the same year: 1943.[3] But in its more modern form, libertarianism originated in the 1960s and 1970s from thinkers based primarily in the United States, notably Ayn Rand and Murray Rothbard. Other significant influences on the nascent libertarian movement include Ludwig von Mises, author of Liberalism (1927) and Human Action (1949, with a predecessor version published in German in 1940); Nobel laureate F.A. von Hayek, author of The Road to Serfdom (1944); Leonard Read, head of the Foundation for Economic Education (founded 1946); and Nobel laureate Milton Friedman, author of the influential Capitalism and Freedom (1962).

    The most prominent and influential of modern libertarian figures, however, were the aforementioned novelist-philosopher Ayn Rand, the founder of “Objectivism” and a “radical for capitalism,” and Murray Rothbard, the Mises-influenced libertarian anarcho-capitalist economist and political theorist. Rothbard’s seminal role is widely recognized, even by non-Rothbardians. Objectivist John McCaskey, for example, has observed, that out of the debates in the mid-1900s about what rights citizens ought to have,

    “grew the main sort of libertarianism of the last fifty years. It was based on a principle articulated by Murray Rothbard in the 1970s this way: No one may initiate the use or threat of physical violence against the person or property of anyone else. The idea had roots in John Locke, America’s founders, and more immediately Ayn Rand, but it was Rothbard’s formulation that became standard. It became known as the non-aggression principle or—since Rothbard took it as the starting point of political theory and not the conclusion of philosophical justification—the non-aggression axiom. In the late twentieth century, anyone who accepted this principle could call himself, or could find himself called, a libertarian, even if he disagreed with Rothbard’s own insistence that rights are best protected when there is no government at all.”[4]

    We can date the dawn of today’s libertarianism to the works of Rand and Rothbard: to Rand’s Atlas Shrugged (1957); and, especially, to Rothbard’s Man, Economy, and State (1962), Power and Market (1970), and For A New Liberty (1973), plus his journal The Libertarian Forum (1969–1984). For A New Liberty stands today as a brilliant, and early, bold statement of the radical libertarian vision. By the mid-60s, the modern libertarian movement was coalescing, primarily behind the non-initiation of force principle and the “radical capitalism” of Ayn Rand, and Rothbard’s systematic libertarian corpus based upon the non-aggression principle or axiom. It is no surprise that the Libertarian Party was founded in 1971, as these ideas, and the liberty movement, were gaining steam.

    In the ensuing decades many other influential works appeared expounding on the libertarian idea, such as Linda and Morris Tannehill, The Market for Liberty (1970), John Hospers, Libertarianism: A Political Philosophy for Tomorrow (1971), David Friedman, The Machinery of Freedom (1973), Robert Nozick, Anarchy, State, and Utopia (1974), Henri Lepage, Tomorrow, Capitalism (1978), Samuel Edward Konkin III, New Libertarian Manifesto (1980), Jan Narveson, The Libertarian Idea (1988), Anthony De Jasay, Choice, Contract, Consent: A Restatement of Liberalism (1991), Richard Epstein, Simple Rules for a Complex World (1995), Charles Murray, What It Means to Be a Libertarian: A Personal Interpretation (1996), David Boaz, Libertarianism: A Primer (1998), Randy E. Barnett, The Structure of Liberty (1998), and, more recently, Jeffrey A. Miron’s Libertarianism, From A to Z (2010), Jacob Huebert’s Libertarianism Today (2010), Gary Chartier’s The Conscience of an Anarchist (2011), and Gerard Casey’s Libertarian Anarchism (2012).

    [1] For more on this, see Brian Doherty, Radicals for Capitalism: A Freewheeling History of the Modern American Libertarian Movement (2008), and David Boaz, The Libertarian Reader: Classic and Contemporary Writings from Lao Tzu to Milton Friedman (1998).

    [2] See Boaz, The Libertarian Reader, id.

    [3] See Doherty, Radicals for Capitalism, id.

    [4] John P. McCaskey, “New Libertarians: New Promoters of a Welfare State” (April 14, 2014), See also Wendy McElroy, “Murray N. Rothbard: Mr. Libertarian,” LewRockwell.com (July 6, 2000). []

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Answers to Questions About Libertarian Punishment and Estoppel

An interchange with someone with questions about one of my articles, which sets out my “estoppel” theory of libertarian rights. For more background on these issues, see the links interspersed below, and those here:

From Mr. S:

I just read your article “A Libertarian Theory of Punishment and Rights”, which was very interesting, thank you.  It raised a number of questions in my mind which I wanted to raise with you in case you’ve dealt with them elsewhere and can point me to these sources.

(Note that I am ignoring for now that both aggressor and victim may have protection insurance policies and so the punishment scale might already have been agreed to; I’m more focused on what a libertarian judge should decide in the absence of preset penalties.)

  1. I raised with [a certain libertarian philosopher] the problem of failed attempts.  You deal with this a little in the area of assault (p.640), but not sufficiently to answer my question.  If A shoots at B but misses, what is the punishment B can levy on A?   Is it just that B can shoot at A and miss, which seems pointless?   But if that wouldn’t instill in A the same amount of fear that B suffered, per your assault example, is B justified in actually hitting A with the bullet and potentially killing him, with A being estopped from complaining about this?  Should failed attempts be punishable at all?  According to Rothbard, neither deterrence nor rehabilitation are valid bases for punishment; rather, only restitution and retribution are appropriate.  But in my example, there is nothing to be restituted and retribution would imply shooting and missing.  Then, to make things more interesting, what if A shot at B and missed, and B didn’t even know A had shot at him, so never suffered any fear (but witnesses saw it and reported A)?   Again, what is the basis on which failed attempts should be punishable?  In a failed attempt there has been no physical invasion of body or property, and mental distress cannot be the basis for action since one cannot have property in one’s feelings (that would raise a host of conflict-creating problems).
  2. It seems to me that the estoppel principle should be more narrowly stated.  In your examples, you say that if A murders B then  A is estopped from complaining about being murdered as punishment.  Yet shouldn’t this be restated to say that A is estopped from complaining about being murdered as punishment by B or his representative?  In other words, I don’t think you mean to imply that A is estopped against the whole world from complaining about being murdered; D (a complete stranger) cannot murder A and then claim that by A’s action in murdering B, A is estopped against anyone from complaining.  Yet that would be one reading of the estoppel principle as stated, since A has by his actions apparently indicated that he sees nothing wrong in murder, so it could be open season on A.
  3. If, as stated on p.635, the goal of punishment is to equalize damage suffered, not just the actions that caused the damage, then that could work against the victim.  If nice person A beats up gang member B, since B is used to getting beaten in his daily life the damage suffered is probably not that great.  Thus he would have to reduce the punishment beating he exacts on A.  Perhaps the theory should be that the victim can exact the greater of (x) equalizing action and (y) equalizing damage.  However, saying “should” is somewhat normative, and I wonder what the positive theory behind such a “greater of” concept would be.
  4. That raises a broader point: what is actually being estopped and therefore what forms the basis for outlining the bounds of punishment: (A) the actions of the aggressor [e.g., punching the victim], (B) the result caused [e.g., burst spleen] or (C) the damage suffered by the victim [e.g., inability to continue working as a laborer]?  Can an aggressor be estopped from any one of these that was not obvious at to him at the time?  If so, then does estoppel not really rest on what the aggressor has actually acknowledged by his actions, but rather what a “reasonable aggressor” should have realized what he was doing?
  5. Moreover, why can the victim choose to exact a dollar remedy for a physical aggression (leaving aside the situation where the aggressor bargains for this with the victim to avoid physical retaliation)?  Under estoppel the aggressor has only acknowledged he does not believe hitting is wrong, but it doesn’t mean he has acknowledged that taking someone’s money is wrong.  It seems that the broader the range of remedies the victim is entitled to exact, the looser the connection to the aggressor’s actions which give rise to the estoppel.  We could end up effectively concluding that the aggressor indicated by his actions that he does not believe in the sanctity of private property at all, and thus any punishment is warranted.  Surely that’s not where we should end up?
  6. What is the theory underlying why heirs can take action on behalf of a murder victim (assuming there is nothing in the victim’s will saying so, and there is no protection policy for which the heirs are the beneficiaries)?  If each person’s body is his own property, how can an heir claim to have been damaged when only the victim’s body was invaded?

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